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Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 3rd 18, 02:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cookie
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Posts: 152
Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???

Anybody have any experience and / or advice on putting vortex generators on our Cessna 182 (swept tail) tow plane? Do they actually do much? Or are they hocus-pocus?

We often tow with 15 to 20 knot, gusty, direct cross winds.


Also, on take off, we have a paved taxiway crossing our grass runway...there can be quite a bump there depending where you cross...we try to have the tow plane airborne before the taxi way, but sometimes it is marginal depending on the wind and the type of glider. VG's might get it in the air sooner??

Lastly, the 182 "likes" to fly a bit faster than the Schweizer gliders (1-26, 2-33) really like to be towed. VG's might make slower tows easier / safer ?

A couple of or tow pilots are all "for" putting on the VG's...figuring every little bit will help...maybe better handling...more control...shorter take off...better cross wind control safer.. etc...

Others say they aren't worth the $$$ or the bother...

Whattadayathink??

Cookie





  #2  
Old November 3rd 18, 05:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???

Look upon VGs as an experiment. Without an approved amendment to the Flight Manual, it will be up to you to determine safe tow and approach speeds.

Remember that at lower airspeeds the engine runs hotter and you might be changing jugs more frequently.
  #3  
Old November 3rd 18, 06:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Daly[_2_]
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 12:33:54 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
Look upon VGs as an experiment. Without an approved amendment to the Flight Manual, it will be up to you to determine safe tow and approach speeds.

Remember that at lower airspeeds the engine runs hotter and you might be changing jugs more frequently.


British Columbia Royal Canadian Air Cadets use C182Ps. Here's a link to their Aircraft Operating Instruction - https://bc-aircadetleague.com/wp-con...-aois-2017.pdf

They have some mods, described on page 1-1, which include VGs (there is an STC number there), leading edge cuffs, wing strengthening and extensions).

  #4  
Old November 3rd 18, 07:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???


https://microaero.com/how-do-micro-vgs-work/

I've flown 2 C182's with and without micro generators.
I think they are well worth the money if your towing in challenging conditions.
The kit is about $1450.00 + installation which shouldn't be too much.
What George Haeh wrote is correct in my experience, the possible overheating problem towing at lower airspeeds. But if getting off the ground earlier and slower, safely, is the goal I think these things are well worth it. And pretty cheap. And they don't effect the cruise speed, the only down side is I think it makes washing and waxing the plane more difficult.

Many years ago here in Telluride we leased a C182 for a tow plane as ours was down for a new engine. Even with two oil coolers, it ran hot, we were always hitting the redline in CHT and Oil temp.
That said the C182 is great well balanced fairly idiot proof airplane, stock, as it tows OK and makes for a real XC airplane with long legs and a 160 MPH cruise speed. And you can pick up beaters cheap.
If I owned one and towed with it I'd put the VG generators on it in a heartbeat. Just makes it safer.
  #5  
Old November 4th 18, 01:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cookie
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???



Thanks everybody for the useful information.

As with everything...there are pros and cons.

In our case I feel the pros out weigh the cons by quite a bit.

We have been towing since mid June with this particular plane...no signs of overheating problems on 95F days. Yes going slower may cause heating issues...but I think we can deal with this.

That Canadian POH is an impressive manual! Not really our aircraft however....we are only 230 HP and carburetor. We have several old timers who are totally capable of testing and generating the V speeds with VG's.

Yes we purchased the 182 for the reasons you said below...It is fairly idiot proof...opens up our ability to get and train tow pilots. Spoiled by towing behind a 260 Pawnee...At first we had to "adapt" to a slightly flatter climb angle and climb rate, longer ground roll etc. Nothing too far out of the realm of reasonable though. As the weather cooled we are getting nice climb rates.

Typical of a club...we have those strongly in favor of putting on the VG's....and those strongly opposed...and many indifferent. But for now the TOWPILOTS votes are 2 for and one against! We'll see what happens

Thanks again,


Cookie





On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 2:54:24 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
https://microaero.com/how-do-micro-vgs-work/

I've flown 2 C182's with and without micro generators.
I think they are well worth the money if your towing in challenging conditions.
The kit is about $1450.00 + installation which shouldn't be too much.
What George Haeh wrote is correct in my experience, the possible overheating problem towing at lower airspeeds. But if getting off the ground earlier and slower, safely, is the goal I think these things are well worth it. And pretty cheap. And they don't effect the cruise speed, the only down side is I think it makes washing and waxing the plane more difficult.

Many years ago here in Telluride we leased a C182 for a tow plane as ours was down for a new engine. Even with two oil coolers, it ran hot, we were always hitting the redline in CHT and Oil temp.
That said the C182 is great well balanced fairly idiot proof airplane, stock, as it tows OK and makes for a real XC airplane with long legs and a 160 MPH cruise speed. And you can pick up beaters cheap.
If I owned one and towed with it I'd put the VG generators on it in a heartbeat. Just makes it safer.


  #6  
Old November 4th 18, 01:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Citrus Soaring
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???

I can’t speak directly to the 182 issue regarding vg’s. However I operate a Cessna 172XP (210hp) and when I purchased it the airplane was stock. I installed the sportsman stol kit which is a leading edge cuff and gap seals on the ailerons. We didn’t loose any cruise performance and the slow flight performance is so much better. Towing performance is much better with a substantially shorter takeoff roll and we can tow Schweizer’s as slow as we care too. Aileron authority is much better since adding the kit.

Having flown airplanes with vg’s I can attest to the fact that they certainly have a positive effect in performance and handling.

These improvements to slow speed handling not only improve the towing performance but also increases safety for the towpilot in normal and emergency situations.
  #7  
Old November 7th 18, 12:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dirk_PW[_2_]
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???

I question why you would want to fly so slow, and to the point where you think you need to use vortex generators to increase safety margins. You're asking for trouble if you want to leave the ground that close to stall - especially towing a glider. Keep yourself safely above stall before leaving the ground please, then you won't need those silly VGs.

If you are "often towing with a 15 - 20kt gusty DIRECT crosswind", you are a brave bunch. I don't know many folks that would consider doing that at all, let alone with a glider in tow. Be safe.
  #8  
Old November 7th 18, 03:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WB
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???

On Tuesday, November 6, 2018 at 5:29:49 PM UTC-6, Dirk_PW wrote:
I question why you would want to fly so slow, and to the point where you think you need to use vortex generators to increase safety margins. You're asking for trouble if you want to leave the ground that close to stall - especially towing a glider. Keep yourself safely above stall before leaving the ground please, then you won't need those silly VGs.


Huh? Isn't reducing stall speed a valid way to "keep yourself safely above stall"? Seems that VG's add to safety margins. What's silly about that?

"Safely above stall" is dependent on conditions. An unexpected bit of shear or encountering a sharp, strong thermal can stall you at a "safe" speed. So, unless you can just increase your tow speed as high as you like, you will always be at some risk of a stall. But we can't just arbitrarily pick our tow speed can we? Towing older, slower ships like 2-33's, Ka-7's, etc at 70 mph into strong thermal conditions will put a hell of a load on the structure. This is especially true these days since we are often flying very near max gross in our old trainers. Tow a little fast and you are flirting with structural damage. Towing at 60 or 65 is still a bit fast for some of the old birds, but does not provide much margin for the tug driver in an unmodified tug when encountering the shear and gust present on any soaring day. STOL kits and VG's give the tug driver a bit of margin when conditions are not ideal. And, unless you can see the air, you won't know when you are about to tow into those NOT ideal conditions.
  #9  
Old November 7th 18, 03:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???

I believe the major consideration n the first post is minimum good tow speed for the standard C-182 vs. the safe tow speed for various SGS gliders the n poor conditions.
The 182 already wants to fly faster, add in margins for poor conditions (gusts, etc.) and you are getting really high in what is safe for lower speed gliders.

So....do they add VG's to lower the speeds for the towplane to open the safe window for some gliders, especially in poor conditions?

That is my interpretation of the original post...

;-)
  #10  
Old November 10th 18, 08:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
CindyB[_2_]
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Default Vortex Generators on 182 tow plane???

On Saturday, November 3, 2018 at 6:02:16 AM UTC-7, Cookie wrote:
Anybody have any experience and / or advice on putting vortex generators on our Cessna 182 (swept tail) tow plane? Do they actually do much? Or are they hocus-pocus?

We often tow with 15 to 20 knot, gusty, direct cross winds.



Whattadayathink??

Cookie



Cookie --

Towed with a C model for almost two decades, maybe 4000 hrs worth, at Cal City. Swept tail, no rear window, manual flaps, one big oil cooler. No VGs even though the maker of Sportsman STOL was based here. That IA signed off most of our inspections.

We found that if you really needed a little slower lift off, just add the first notch of flaps. Or for the 1-26s. It gave a bit better forward view. That was certainly more thrifty than the VG kit.

It costs you nothing to try it for a while, then decide.

Best wishes,

Cindy B







 




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