Garmin Price Fixing Post from other newsgroup

Subject: Garmin too big for their britches? (Fixed Pricing)
From: (TripodBill)
Date: 7/14/2004 12:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Many readers appropriately picked up on one of the most important issues in my
earlier post: Minimum Retail Price Policy (i.e., controls). For those that are
still interested in the subject and are of the "pilot persuasion" here's an
update of what you can expect at the Oshkosh show this year. You may recall
from my previous post that I relayed information from a friend Garmin's new
price policy on the GPSMAP 296 at SunNFun. Well, if you are headed to EAA's
Oshkosh show this year, there is good and bad news. Good news: The older GPSMAP
196 will be cheaper this year at about $795. More Good news: There will be new
low-end handhelds in B&W and color to replace the aging GPS III Pilot and
GPSMAP 295. The new handhelds will both be in the GPSMAP 76 form factor. (Not
sure if that's a great design for yoke mounting, but I'll leave that to pilots
to decide.) Bad news? ALL MODELS will now be under the Minimum Retail Price
Policy, meaning no dealer at the show will be competing with another dealer.
Buy from whoever you like, 'cause they can't sell it to you any cheaper. Any
dealer that screws up and offers free shipping, a package deal, or discounted
accessory will be canceled by Garmin. Garmin has now fixed prices on all their
aviation products. It will be just a matter of time before they do the same in
the automotive, outdoor and marine product lines. Happy shopping!

-Bill Hicks


(for more info, see sci.geo.satellite-nav newsgroup)

Bill,

I used to have a similar reaction to these kinds of activities by
manufacturers. But Wal Mart, and the internet, have somewhat changed my
opinion.

It's gotten where you cannot get service from ANYONE, for ANYTHING, ANYMORE.
The reason is too much pricing info.

I would be happy to relate how this works to any given industry, but here is
a Garmin example.

You want a handheld GPS. You want quality, but you don't necessarily need
every bell and whistle. You start shopping by reading the internet, talking
to friends, and asking questions of sales people. Then you start going over
what you learn and look for the best price for the model you want.

The only problem is that the guy who put up an informative website, paid for
someone intelligent and well mannered to answer questions, and otherwise did
things to keep demand up has a higher cost of sale than the chain smoker
with a cheap website and a telephone in a rusty building. If Garmin wants
the first guy to stay in business, they have to do something to prevent
their active distributors from being constantly under cut by box movers.
And that is that.

Many schemes have been tried, but the simplest one, that costs the least,
ends up being price policing. We would all like to have a knowledgeable
pilot give us a professional knowledge transfer for our important purchases,
but we consistently buy from the cheap guy who provides an idiot clerk with
a bad attitude caused by ill treatment from idiot management.

Perhaps you make your living from a business where this sort of thing is not
a problem, but to many business this has become a real issue.


"TripodBill" wrote in message
...
Subject: Garmin too big for their britches? (Fixed Pricing)
From: (TripodBill)
Date: 7/14/2004 12:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Many readers appropriately picked up on one of the most important issues
in my
earlier post: Minimum Retail Price Policy (i.e., controls). For those that
are
still interested in the subject and are of the "pilot persuasion" here's
an
update of what you can expect at the Oshkosh show this year. You may
recall
from my previous post that I relayed information from a friend
Garmin's new
price policy on the GPSMAP 296 at SunNFun. Well, if you are headed to
EAA's
Oshkosh show this year, there is good and bad news. Good news: The older
GPSMAP
196 will be cheaper this year at about $795. More Good news: There will be
new
low-end handhelds in B&W and color to replace the aging GPS III Pilot and
GPSMAP 295. The new handhelds will both be in the GPSMAP 76 form factor.
(Not
sure if that's a great design for yoke mounting, but I'll leave that to
pilots
to decide.) Bad news? ALL MODELS will now be under the Minimum Retail
Price
Policy, meaning no dealer at the show will be competing with another
dealer.
Buy from whoever you like, 'cause they can't sell it to you any cheaper.
Any
dealer that screws up and offers free shipping, a package deal, or
discounted
accessory will be canceled by Garmin. Garmin has now fixed prices on all
their
aviation products. It will be just a matter of time before they do the
same in
the automotive, outdoor and marine product lines. Happy shopping!

-Bill Hicks


(for more info, see sci.geo.satellite-nav newsgroup)

Gotta raise the BS flag on this one. I don't buy it at all. I have gotten
absolutely ****TY service, MANY times from the "full-service", high dollar
"official dealers"... It ain't just the internet distributor working out of
a rental storage unit with grey market goods that gives you crappy
service!!!

Same issue has been around for YEARS in the SCUBA equipment industry. The
manufacturers strong arm dealers. So large numbers of people all go "grey
market" via the net, so the manufacturers threaten to not honor any warantee
for products bought outside the "official dealer network" (law suits are
pending...) SCUBA equipment is as expensive as the manufacturers want it to
be. The dealers still pay the same wholesale price, and determine their own
margins based upon any SPIFs. "Official Dealers" provide dog**** service
anyway, so why SHOULDN'T I go to the cheapest guy? I have to double check,
and sometimes fix their work anyway. My Golf Foxtrot bought a new regulator
and comp from an "Official Dealer" SCUBA shop. This is LIFE SUPPORT
equipment. They ****ed up the set up, and she ran out of air at 85 fsw
because of a free flowing reg. From your "full service", high dollar
"official dealer" no less...

So what if a dealer wants to sell a GPS below MSRP? Garmin makes the same
amount on their wholesale pricing. They are just trying to manipulate the
market a bit. Why don't you check out the WxWorx receiver for their marine
applications (where they have real competition.) Ain't no way in hell the
aviation version of the product will be less than $5K. The marine version is
on the market now, and less than $1K. I seriously doubt there will be much
difference in the boards...

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes. Let's just
wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last summer
for legacy units ends up.

Our only hope is that Bendix/King can pull their collective head out of
their ass and build some truely competitive products to force Garmin into a
more competitive position.



"Dude" wrote in message
news
Bill,

I used to have a similar reaction to these kinds of activities by
manufacturers. But Wal Mart, and the internet, have somewhat changed my
opinion.

It's gotten where you cannot get service from ANYONE, for ANYTHING,
ANYMORE.
The reason is too much pricing info.

I would be happy to relate how this works to any given industry, but here
is
a Garmin example.

You want a handheld GPS. You want quality, but you don't necessarily need
every bell and whistle. You start shopping by reading the internet,
talking
to friends, and asking questions of sales people. Then you start going
over
what you learn and look for the best price for the model you want.

The only problem is that the guy who put up an informative website, paid
for
someone intelligent and well mannered to answer questions, and otherwise
did
things to keep demand up has a higher cost of sale than the chain smoker
with a cheap website and a telephone in a rusty building. If Garmin wants
the first guy to stay in business, they have to do something to prevent
their active distributors from being constantly under cut by box movers.
And that is that.

Many schemes have been tried, but the simplest one, that costs the least,
ends up being price policing. We would all like to have a knowledgeable
pilot give us a professional knowledge transfer for our important
purchases,
but we consistently buy from the cheap guy who provides an idiot clerk
with
a bad attitude caused by ill treatment from idiot management.

Perhaps you make your living from a business where this sort of thing is
not
a problem, but to many business this has become a real issue.


"TripodBill" wrote in message
...
Subject: Garmin too big for their britches? (Fixed Pricing)
From: (TripodBill)
Date: 7/14/2004 12:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Many readers appropriately picked up on one of the most important issues
in my
earlier post: Minimum Retail Price Policy (i.e., controls). For those
that
are
still interested in the subject and are of the "pilot persuasion" here's
an
update of what you can expect at the Oshkosh show this year. You may
recall
from my previous post that I relayed information from a friend
Garmin's new
price policy on the GPSMAP 296 at SunNFun. Well, if you are headed to
EAA's
Oshkosh show this year, there is good and bad news. Good news: The older
GPSMAP
196 will be cheaper this year at about $795. More Good news: There will
be
new
low-end handhelds in B&W and color to replace the aging GPS III Pilot
and
GPSMAP 295. The new handhelds will both be in the GPSMAP 76 form factor.
(Not
sure if that's a great design for yoke mounting, but I'll leave that to
pilots
to decide.) Bad news? ALL MODELS will now be under the Minimum Retail
Price
Policy, meaning no dealer at the show will be competing with another
dealer.
Buy from whoever you like, 'cause they can't sell it to you any cheaper.
Any
dealer that screws up and offers free shipping, a package deal, or
discounted
accessory will be canceled by Garmin. Garmin has now fixed prices on all
their
aviation products. It will be just a matter of time before they do the
same in
the automotive, outdoor and marine product lines. Happy shopping!

-Bill Hicks


(for more info, see sci.geo.satellite-nav newsgroup)

"Mark T. Mueller" wrote in message
...

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes. Let's
just
wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last summer
for legacy units ends up.


Exactly what taxes have they avoided?

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...


"Mark T. Mueller" wrote in
message
...

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know
why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes. Let's
just
wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last
summer
for legacy units ends up.


Exactly what taxes have they avoided?

US taxes?

It's ironic, that some of the same people bitching are trying to get "a
better deal", but they trash Garmin for trying to get "a better deal".

"Mark T. Mueller" wrote in message
...
Gotta raise the BS flag on this one. I don't buy it at all. I have gotten
absolutely ****TY service, MANY times from the "full-service", high dollar
"official dealers"... It ain't just the internet distributor working out
of
a rental storage unit with grey market goods that gives you crappy
service!!!


First, there are no guarantees, but I can assume you did not go back to them
right? Why did you choose them in the first place?




Same issue has been around for YEARS in the SCUBA equipment industry. The
manufacturers strong arm dealers. So large numbers of people all go "grey
market" via the net, so the manufacturers threaten to not honor any
warantee
for products bought outside the "official dealer network" (law suits are
pending...) SCUBA equipment is as expensive as the manufacturers want it
to
be. The dealers still pay the same wholesale price, and determine their
own
margins based upon any SPIFs. "Official Dealers" provide dog**** service
anyway, so why SHOULDN'T I go to the cheapest guy? I have to double check,
and sometimes fix their work anyway. My Golf Foxtrot bought a new
regulator
and comp from an "Official Dealer" SCUBA shop. This is LIFE SUPPORT
equipment. They ****ed up the set up, and she ran out of air at 85 fsw
because of a free flowing reg. From your "full service", high dollar
"official dealer" no less...


IT's not my dealer, so tell all your friends, tell the BBB, life's not 100%.
Don't like it, don't buy that brand any more! That is the whole point. If
the brand is controlling its distributors, then it should stand behind them,
and here your complaints. If not, DON"T BUY THAT BRAND.

So what if a dealer wants to sell a GPS below MSRP? Garmin makes the same
amount on their wholesale pricing. They are just trying to manipulate the
market a bit. Why don't you check out the WxWorx receiver for their marine
applications (where they have real competition.) Ain't no way in hell the
aviation version of the product will be less than $5K. The marine version
is
on the market now, and less than $1K. I seriously doubt there will be much
difference in the boards...


They already conrol wholesale cost, so this is really isn't the point at
all. You have a choice, don't buy it if you don't like the price. Garmin
knows that this will lose some customers, but they hope to have a better
outcome in the long run.

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes. Let's
just
wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last summer
for legacy units ends up.


Slimy feeling? Corporate moved off shore? Do you have an actual example of
service from Garmin you did not approve of?


Our only hope is that Bendix/King can pull their collective head out of
their ass and build some truely competitive products to force Garmin into
a
more competitive position.


Garmin was likely started in a garage like half the companies in the world.
Why don't you start a company and give everything away, while giving great
service. We will see how long you last before the conspiracy theories
start.

Its pretty obvious you have a Naderite fear of businesses. If not, I would
love to know what you do. Doing business with you is either hell or heaven.
I can't tell which.

They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.

Mike
MU-2


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...


"Mark T. Mueller" wrote in
message
...

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know
why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real
slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes.
Let's
just
wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last
summer
for legacy units ends up.


Exactly what taxes have they avoided?

US taxes?

It's ironic, that some of the same people bitching are trying to get "a
better deal", but they trash Garmin for trying to get "a better deal".

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.

Mike
MU-2


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...


"Mark T. Mueller" wrote in
message
...

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really
know
why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real
slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes.
Let's
just
wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last
summer
for legacy units ends up.


Exactly what taxes have they avoided?

US taxes?

It's ironic, that some of the same people bitching are trying to get "a
better deal", but they trash Garmin for trying to get "a better deal".

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.

Mike
MU-2

Really?



"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...


"Mark T. Mueller" wrote in
message
...

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really
know
why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real
slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes.


Exactly what taxes have they avoided?

US taxes?

They pay US taxes on US earnings and Taiwan taxes on Taiwan earnings. I
don't think domiciling the company in the US would change things much.

Mike
MU-2


"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.

Mike
MU-2

Really?



"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...


"Mark T. Mueller" wrote in
message
...

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really
know
why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real
slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes.


Exactly what taxes have they avoided?

US taxes?