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#21
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DG Differences...
Nobody mentioned the obvious yet: If you're not after pure performance,
the "feel" of a glider will be far more important than 5% performance. Some pilots just like flaps, others just hate them. You may prefer "the feel" of one glider, an other pilot may prefer "the feel" of a different glider. Go fly both and decide which one you prefer. |
#22
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DG Differences...
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:23:24 -0700, noel.wade wrote:
This is why I'm phrasing things in terms of speed or XC distance/ aggressiveness. The "climb" flaps of the ASW-20 are certainly superior (in small but noticeable ways) to the standard-class ships of the late-70's. As a some-time 20 driver I found that I almost never used thermal flap. The glider felt a lot livelier and climbed almost as well in zero flap. I only used thermal flap when digging myself out of a hole in very weak lift. I've been told that a 20 spins more easily in thermal flap though didn't experience that. If it helps any, read what Andreas Maurer had to say about flying the 20. I found it very helpful. Mine was an early version with the Jesus flap setting. A copy of his notes is he http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/asw2..._handling.html If you do go for the 20 you'll find that learning to fly a flapped glider is rather like the experience that somebody who learnt to drive an automatic car has when converting to a manual gearbox: the mechanics of using the flaps is easy enough but the business of being in the right flap setting at all times takes time and practise. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | org | Zappa fan & glider pilot |
#23
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DG Differences...
I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working order. I know own a flapped glider. Would I go back sure. However I like 25.5meters and anything under is just no fun. So looking at the gliders that you listed. What fits your wallet? What fits your body? What looks sexy (to you)? What finish is in good condition (unless you like sanding and painting)? They are all good gliders, if not they would be sitting on the market cheap...but there is not much sitting on the market, and it is not cheap. On the trailer topic. Nimbus 3 in Pfieffer trailer vs last generation Cobra trailer....time difference to rig is about 3min. You could get rid of that with a trailer ramp jack. |
#24
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DG Differences...
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind conditions. Are you sure about that? The Road & Track Road Test Summary shows that 130' is the typical emergency stopping distance of most cars from 60 mph (52 knots). The Porsche Carrera GT, for example, stops in 124'. I would like to see you stop that D2 as quickly as a Porsche! How many times do you pick a field with that little distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working order. I know own a flapped glider. Would I go back sure. However I like 25.5meters and anything under is just no fun. So looking at the gliders that you listed. What fits your wallet? What fits your body? What looks sexy (to you)? What finish is in good condition (unless you like sanding and painting)? They are all good gliders, if not they would be sitting on the market cheap...but there is not much sitting on the market, and it is not cheap. On the trailer topic. Nimbus 3 in Pfieffer trailer vs last generation Cobra trailer....time difference to rig is about 3min. You could get rid of that with a trailer ramp jack. |
#25
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DG Differences...
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working order. In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance. It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. This allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available. Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way... Marc |
#26
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DG Differences...
Hi Marc,
Your DG-600 had flaperons, as does my Apis...............they go down only 12 degrees, great for thermalling, but not so great for steep approaches. So when we are talking about flapped gliders, do gliders with un-mixed flaperons count when the topic of steep approaches is discussed? Cheers, Brad On Apr 17, 7:08*pm, Marc Ramsey wrote: g l i d e r s t u d wrote: I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working order. In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance. It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. *This allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available. * Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way... Marc |
#27
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DG Differences...
Brad wrote:
Hi Marc, Your DG-600 had flaperons, as does my Apis...............they go down only 12 degrees, great for thermalling, but not so great for steep approaches. So when we are talking about flapped gliders, do gliders with un-mixed flaperons count when the topic of steep approaches is discussed? No, that's why I mentioned 40+ degrees. The trailing edge flap/brakes on my Ventus B and the 40 degree flaps on my ASW-20B made short obstructed fields seem easy. The 600 and LAK-17A were little better than standard class ships in that area, however, both kicked into warp in negative flap... Marc On Apr 17, 7:08 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote: g l i d e r s t u d wrote: I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working order. In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance. It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. This allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available. Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way... Marc |
#28
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DG Differences...
Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph?
I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared? Sadly my Discus 2 went to FL so I cant show you.....maybe it was the Maughmer winglets.... Now I am stuck with my big heavy glider that has flaps. |
#29
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DG Differences...
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph? I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared? Sadly my Discus 2 went to FL so I cant show you.....maybe it was the Maughmer winglets.... Now I am stuck with my big heavy glider that has flaps. What speed do you land at in order to stop in 130 feet? |
#30
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DG Differences...
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph? I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared? Sadly my Discus 2 went to FL so I cant show you.....maybe it was the Maughmer winglets.... Now I am stuck with my big heavy glider that has flaps. My point was simply that 40 degree flaps or trailing edge dive brakes produce a tremendous amount of drag, more than spoilers will. Enough drag that you'll barely accelerate with the nose down 30 or even 40 degrees. Try that coming over our tall western trees with most standard class gliders and you'll float halfway down a 400 ft patch before you bleed off enough speed to make that nice low energy landing. And, yes, I often touch down at over 60 mph (TAS). At a 6000 to 8000 foot density altitude in mountainous terrain, you know perfectly well you shouldn't be going much slower. Now, your present glider obviously doesn't have the benefit of nice draggy landing flaps. Try a 27, 20, Ventus A/B, HP, etc., if you want to experience the real thing... Marc |
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