Piper?

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 19:05:54 -0500, Greg Copeland
wrote:

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:35:14 +0000, Ron Wanttaja wrote:

Some engines still require a touch of lead, especially just after a
rebuild. The guy who fixed my bad exhaust valve told me to fly exclusively
on 100LL for the first fifty hours, and then use 100 LL every fourth
fillup. 100LL has four times the lead as the old 80/87.

Thanks guys! A followup question.

Not trying to start pointing the age stick, but, leaded fuel was pretty
well on its way out when I kid. As such, I've not had much experience
with leaded fuel. Exactly what is the lead helping with?

IIRC from my valve repair, the lead coats stuff and acts as a lubricant.
The engines need it most in the early days, and once it builds up a bit
it's not as critical to keep adding more. When I had the exhaust valve
replaced, I spent a few bucks more and got the kind that isn't as critical
about having lead available. Doesn't help me with the other three,
though.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 01:39:09 +0000, Ron Wanttaja wrote:

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 19:05:54 -0500, Greg Copeland
Not trying to start pointing the age stick, but, leaded fuel was pretty
well on its way out when I kid. As such, I've not had much experience
with leaded fuel. Exactly what is the lead helping with?

IIRC from my valve repair, the lead coats stuff and acts as a lubricant.
The engines need it most in the early days, and once it builds up a bit
it's not as critical to keep adding more. When I had the exhaust valve
replaced, I spent a few bucks more and got the kind that isn't as critical
about having lead available. Doesn't help me with the other three,
though.... :-)



Thanks.

Greg Copeland wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:35:14 +0000, Ron Wanttaja wrote:

Some engines still require a touch of lead, especially just after a
rebuild. The guy who fixed my bad exhaust valve told me to fly exclusively
on 100LL for the first fifty hours, and then use 100 LL every fourth
fillup. 100LL has four times the lead as the old 80/87.

Thanks guys! A followup question.

Not trying to start pointing the age stick, but, leaded fuel was pretty
well on its way out when I kid. As such, I've not had much experience
with leaded fuel. Exactly what is the lead helping with?

It boosts octane and prevents (old) valves from microwelding to the (old)
valve seats. Modern valves and seats are made of stuff that doesn't
require lead.

There are limited (EPA approved) additives to boost the octane.

For more than you ever wanted to know about aviation fuel, see
http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuel.../aviationfuel/

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

On 29-Apr-2004, "Jay Honeck" wrote:

Using your criterion, my old Warrior was just as good as my Pathfinder,
since, heck, all I had to do was "fuel for my mission" and go. Why lug
around all that extra fuel?

Are you telling me that, if each is fueled for a 500 nm IFR flight, your
Pathfinder has no more available payload than a Warrior? I don't believe
it! In fact, I am doubtful that the Warrior has the required range
regardless of payload.

Unfortunately, doing so would occasionally leave very little margin for
error, since we would have to leave 25 gallons on the ground to fly to
OSH,
fully loaded.

OK, once again here is the metric I suggest: Put just enough fuel in the
plane to fly 500 nm with 1.5 hrs normal cruise fuel reserve. Then, with
exactly that much fuel aboard, how many pounds of people and/or "stuff" can
you put in the cabin before you reach max gross weight?

Want an alternative, payload-centric metric? Here's one: Load the cabin
with 700 lbs of people and/or "stuff". Then put the amount of fuel in the
tanks that will bring you to max gross weight. How far can you then fly in
zero wind conditions with 1.5 hours fuel reserve?


The ability to carry 6 hours of fuel (84 gallons) *and* a big payload is
what makes the Pathfinder special. When we were able to fly from the
Grand Canyon to Carlsbad, NM, non-stop -- with four people and luggage for
a
week -- I knew we had the right plane.

Now, of course, you can argue that it is rare that anyone would make such
a long duration flight (especially with 2 kids, and no potty!) -- and
you'd
be right. But it sure is nice to have the ability to do so. That's what
having a large "full-fuel payload" is all about.

Long duration???? Straight-line distance GCN to CNM is only 448 nm! My
Arrow IV could make that flight with 1 hr VFR reserve carrying about 700 lbs
cabin load. That's easily two adults, two kids, and a pile of luggage

My Arrow could also easily fly from Billings, MT to Iowa City (779 nm)
nonstop with 1.5 hrs IFR reserve carrying about 525 lbs in the cabin. I
don't think your Pathfinder can do that. But it could, if it had bigger
tanks. So, maybe the Arrow is an even BETTER compromise?

--
-Elliott Drucker

Greg Copeland wrote:

Exactly what is the lead helping with?

Tetraethyl lead does two things. It reduces the volatility of the fuel, thereby
boosting the anti-knock rating, and it cools and lubricates the valves. If you have
an auto engine that's designed to use, say, 100 octane fuel (no unleaded fuel is this
good), it can be detuned to run on, for example, 96 octane unleaded. If your valves
require leade fuel, they can be replaced with valves that can take the heat.
Lycoming, however, does recommend that leaded fuel be used for the first few hours
after overhaul.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

well i dont know what the true was but my GS was 125knts big headwind. I
was comming back with my day from KPUC from a dirtbike race that I did.
there was a PA28 at 14,000 picking up ICE. And I didnt want to mess with
that. My IAS was 140 mph (i would have to look and see what that is in
knts). I hear about Comanche 260 (non turbo) going up to FL200. I think
the SC is 20,600 or that might be on the 250. Never herd it on the radio
tho.

*** Sent via http://www.automationtools.com ***
Add a newsgroup interface to your website today.

Want an alternative, payload-centric metric? Here's one: Load the cabin
with 700 lbs of people and/or "stuff". Then put the amount of fuel in the
tanks that will bring you to max gross weight. How far can you then fly
in
zero wind conditions with 1.5 hours fuel reserve?

You seem to have made my point for me quite nicely. Thanks!

Long duration???? Straight-line distance GCN to CNM is only 448 nm! My
Arrow IV could make that flight with 1 hr VFR reserve carrying about 700
lbs
cabin load. That's easily two adults, two kids, and a pile of luggage

Sorry -- I forgot to mention and include the 2+ hour sight-seeing flight
over the Canyon itself prior to setting off on the flight to CNM. My bad.

My Arrow could also easily fly from Billings, MT to Iowa City (779 nm)
nonstop with 1.5 hrs IFR reserve carrying about 525 lbs in the cabin. I
don't think your Pathfinder can do that. But it could, if it had bigger
tanks. So, maybe the Arrow is an even BETTER compromise?

Well, by my calculations that would require me to fly 5.5 hours (779 nm at
140 knots). At my usual 14 gph fuel burn, I'd have used only 77 (of my 84)
gallons, and landed with a 30 minute reserve.

In order to land with your specified 1.5 hour reserve, I'd have to fly high
and lean it back to around 12 gph. Since this would be over high terrain,
that's not difficult.

More importantly, I'd have been able to haul 956 pounds on the flight --
that's four 200 pound men, plus 156 pounds of luggage.

While your Arrow could make the distance, in order to carry the passengers,
you would have to make two trips.

Case closed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

Are you getting 140 knots in cruise? I get 143mph (125 knots) at 65% and
about 11gph. I never run it over 65% in cruise.


Trip

In article zrkkc.1036$0H1.181257@attbi_s54, says...

Want an alternative, payload-centric metric? Here's one: Load the cabin
with 700 lbs of people and/or "stuff". Then put the amount of fuel in the
tanks that will bring you to max gross weight. How far can you then fly
in
zero wind conditions with 1.5 hours fuel reserve?

You seem to have made my point for me quite nicely. Thanks!

Long duration???? Straight-line distance GCN to CNM is only 448 nm! My
Arrow IV could make that flight with 1 hr VFR reserve carrying about 700
lbs
cabin load. That's easily two adults, two kids, and a pile of luggage

Sorry -- I forgot to mention and include the 2+ hour sight-seeing flight
over the Canyon itself prior to setting off on the flight to CNM. My bad.

My Arrow could also easily fly from Billings, MT to Iowa City (779 nm)
nonstop with 1.5 hrs IFR reserve carrying about 525 lbs in the cabin. I
don't think your Pathfinder can do that. But it could, if it had bigger
tanks. So, maybe the Arrow is an even BETTER compromise?

Well, by my calculations that would require me to fly 5.5 hours (779 nm at
140 knots). At my usual 14 gph fuel burn, I'd have used only 77 (of my 84)
gallons, and landed with a 30 minute reserve.

In order to land with your specified 1.5 hour reserve, I'd have to fly high
and lean it back to around 12 gph. Since this would be over high terrain,
that's not difficult.

More importantly, I'd have been able to haul 956 pounds on the flight --
that's four 200 pound men, plus 156 pounds of luggage.

While your Arrow could make the distance, in order to carry the passengers,
you would have to make two trips.

Case closed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"TripFarmer" wrote in message
...
Jay,

Are you getting 140 knots in cruise? I get 143mph (125 knots) at 65% and
about 11gph. I never run it over 65% in cruise.

The 182 can do that trip too. Although I always run balls to the wall
unless I need to stretch it for some reason. I could stay up for 11 hours
if I survive the bladder explosion.

Newps ) wrote:

"TripFarmer" wrote in message
...
Jay,

Are you getting 140 knots in cruise? I get 143mph (125 knots) at 65% and
about 11gph. I never run it over 65% in cruise.

The 182 can do that trip too. Although I always run balls to the wall
unless I need to stretch it for some reason. I could stay up for 11 hours
if I survive the bladder explosion.

Eleven hours?? That would put most people in the COLON EXPLOSION zone.

--
Peter