Some good news

On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 7:19:58 AM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 10/23/2015 1:26 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2015 17:27:40 UTC+2 schrieb Dan Marotta:
Rotor is the Boogie Man.

In the Air Force flight training they showed us movies of a B-52 whose
vertical tail had been torn off in an encounter with rotor. I feared
rotor, too, until encountering it for the first time in a glider with the
airspeed well within the green arc. Yes, it's bumpy, but maintaining
control is a non-event. Using rotor to climb into the wave is sometimes
the only way to get there. There's a terrific mix of up and down but, if
you stay on the upwind side of the rotor, the net is up. You climb in
rough air and then, all of a sudden, it becomes silky smooth and the rate
of climb increases rapidly. What a treat! Having said that, I still
have enough sense not to fly through rotor with the airspeed in the
yellow! Dan, 5J

I can assure you that there are rotors out there where you can't maintain
control in a glider *at all*, even if you are spiraling with 80 kts.

Bert Ventus cM TW


+1 on TW's observation (my own being from Boulder, CO), though I always
attempted to hold a mere ~60 knots to reduce personal/ship G loads, accepting
whatever "unusual attitude" came my way. Worked for me. Never been rolled
beyond 90-degrees/vertical (against full opposite controls) or pitched much
more than +/- 45-degrees, but when this - and you're sometimes enveloped in
utterly still air just after an impressive gust of some sort - happens
vertically close to the foothills, it's a real thrill. Apply your own versions
of understated humor to that last...

Bob W.

In my 1,600 hours and thirty plus years of gliding, I have had two relevant experiences - both in my Jantar-1 in South Africa. I was pitched forward beyond 90 degrees in mountain rotor and may have been inverted briefly. I deployed airbrakes and recovered quickly, but it was exciting!

On another occasion, I got trapped above a layer of stratus that formed ahead of a squall line but descended by flying straight and level with the assistance of an SZD turn-and bank until I was in the clear. The experience taught me never to get caught above cloud again!

Mike

I guess our personal limits just differ from each other. Of course I
have experienced times when full deflection of the controls would not
stop a rolling or pitching action, but I was never concerned about it
because I kept my airspeed low enough that stall was more likely than
damage. Knowing how to recover from unusual attitudes and being
comfortable with aerobatics may help here.

My roughest wave flights have been in the Rockies, in the Wet Mountain
Valley near Westcliffe, and a bit west of Leadville. To date, what I've
seen around Moriarty, NM has been pretty benign. Note: I've run with
scissors and played with matches and I still have both eyes and all my
fingers. Your results may vary.

On 10/23/2015 8:19 AM, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 10/23/2015 1:26 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 22. Oktober 2015 17:27:40 UTC+2 schrieb Dan Marotta:
Rotor is the Boogie Man.

In the Air Force flight training they showed us movies of a B-52 whose
vertical tail had been torn off in an encounter with rotor. I feared
rotor, too, until encountering it for the first time in a glider
with the
airspeed well within the green arc. Yes, it's bumpy, but maintaining
control is a non-event. Using rotor to climb into the wave is
sometimes
the only way to get there. There's a terrific mix of up and down
but, if
you stay on the upwind side of the rotor, the net is up. You climb in
rough air and then, all of a sudden, it becomes silky smooth and the
rate
of climb increases rapidly. What a treat! Having said that, I still
have enough sense not to fly through rotor with the airspeed in the
yellow! Dan, 5J

I can assure you that there are rotors out there where you can't
maintain
control in a glider *at all*, even if you are spiraling with 80 kts.

Bert Ventus cM TW


+1 on TW's observation (my own being from Boulder, CO), though I
always attempted to hold a mere ~60 knots to reduce personal/ship G
loads, accepting whatever "unusual attitude" came my way. Worked for
me. Never been rolled beyond 90-degrees/vertical (against full
opposite controls) or pitched much more than +/- 45-degrees, but when
this - and you're sometimes enveloped in utterly still air just after
an impressive gust of some sort - happens vertically close to the
foothills, it's a real thrill. Apply your own versions of understated
humor to that last...

Bob W.

--
Dan, 5J

Update - The HP was airlifted out of the woods today, disassembled, and is on its way to Biddeford, ME for salvage. I don't have photos of the lift or final tally of damage, but I have a feeling it's going to be a relatively easy fix for a homebuilder to have him or herself a nice HP-14. May the best bidder win.

On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 7:03:24 PM UTC-4, Christopher Giacomo wrote:
Update - The HP was airlifted out of the woods today...

Your openness about your experience is valuable and appreciated. Thanks.

Chris, do you normally unbuckle your parachute before of after exiting the cockpit? If the former it may explain what happened.

Ramy

I second that. It is much more helpful to be able to discuss an accident/incident with those directly involved vs having to speculate, although I maintain that the latter is still better than not discussing at all.

Ramy

And I'm disappointed that there's been no narrative of everything
recalled from the decision to leave the aircraft until feet were safely
on the ground. Any time someone experiencing such an emergency can pass
on all the thoughts, fears, worries,procedures, successes and failures
to the rest of us, it can only improve the prospects of success for the
rest of us.

On a personal note, I used to unbuckle my parachute before getting out
of the glider because it's easier physically. About a year ago I
decided that it would be better to always leave the glider with the
'chute on to avoid unbuckling out of habit before an emergency exit.
Since then, I've been refining my method for getting out and it's much
easier now. I realize that g-loading can have quite an impact on exit,
either positive or negative.

On 10/23/2015 11:04 PM, Ramy wrote:
I second that. It is much more helpful to be able to discuss an accident/incident with those directly involved vs having to speculate, although I maintain that the latter is still better than not discussing at all.

Ramy

--
Dan, 5J

At 16:28 24 October 2015, Dan Marotta wrote:


On a personal note, I used to unbuckle my parachute before getting out
of the glider because it's easier physically. About a year ago I
decided that it would be better to always leave the glider with the
'chute on to avoid unbuckling out of habit before an emergency exit.
Since then, I've been refining my method for getting out and it's much
easier now. I realize that g-loading can have quite an impact on exit,
either positive or negative.

I have always climbed out of the glider complete with parachute for the
reasons described above.
With the advancing years I have, on occasion, unbuckled the parachute to
make getting out easier. I found that to do this is very difficult. The leg
clips are difficult to reach to unclip so perhaps the danger of unclipping
in the event of an abandonment is less that it would appear.
It would be interesting to know whether in the case under discussion
whether the parachute was unclipped in the cockpit or the pilot go in with
his chute not secure, I suspect the latter is the more likely.

Let's not under estimate the dreaded "tunnel vision", which I believe is a factor in most accidents and incidents.
This incident is a good example. Tunnel vision may have contributed to the pilot focusing on trying to decend through the gap instead of evaluating other options.
Tunnel vision will cause you to fixate on the task you most accustom to do, even if it is difficult to do. So if you are used to unbuckle the parachute in the cockpit, chances are that under the extreme stress of bailout (I can't imagine a more stressful situation as a pilot) tunnel vision will take over and you will unbuckle the parachute even if it is not straight forward. Same goes to if you are used to fly with a chute but occasionally don't , chances are that in an emergency you may bail out without checking if you wearing your chute. I heard stories about pilots bailing out without their chute.

Ramy

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
And I'm disappointed that there's been no narrative of everything
recalled from the decision to leave the aircraft until feet were
safely on the ground.* Any time someone experiencing such an
emergency can pass on all the thoughts, fears, worries,procedures,
successes and failures to the rest of us, it can only improve the
prospects of success for the rest of us.



On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:28:50 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
And I'm disappointed that there's been no narrative of everything
recalled from the decision to leave the aircraft until feet were
safely on the ground.* Any time someone experiencing such an
emergency can pass on all the thoughts, fears, worries,procedures,
successes and failures to the rest of us, it can only improve the
prospects of success for the rest of us.



On a personal note, I used to unbuckle my parachute before getting
out of the glider because it's easier physically.* About a year ago
I decided that it would be better to always leave the glider with
the 'chute on to avoid unbuckling out of habit before an emergency
exit.* Since then, I've been refining my method for getting out and
it's much easier now.* I realize that g-loading can have quite an
impact on exit, either positive or negative.




On 10/23/2015 11:04 PM, Ramy wrote:



I second that. It is much more helpful to be able to discuss an accident/incident with those directly involved vs having to speculate, although I maintain that the latter is still better than not discussing at all.

Ramy





--

Dan, 5J

Sorry to disappoint Dan...
I have done a 5(ish) page writeup on the whole event, but do not quite feel comfortable posting it to RAS or in Soaring magazine at the moment, as we haven't fully grasped the weather and all that went into the various events that occurred, and i haven't solidified my personal conclusions on my decisions yet. If i left the parachute ride out of it, my apologies, it was not my intent.

On the parachute question, I make it a point to not unbuckle my harness until standing outside the glider, as the muscle memory issue pointed about above was made to me several years back while at Caesar Creek.

As far as the actual bailout process. while in the spiral, i opened the canopy, crouched in my seat, placed my hand on the D-ring, jumped, arched my back, and pulled the ring (about a 3-second sequence in all from when i was crouched. As mentioned and debated previously, once the opening shock hit me, i had difficulty pulling on the left risers, but was able to reach and pull down on the right rear riser of the parachute to steer myself closer to Rt-16 on the descent. Being unable to turn left made this more of a sequencing thing, where i would turn faster when facing into the wind, then relax the pressure when going in the correct direction. As i got down to ~100ft over the trees, i prepared for impact by releasing the risers and covering my face with my forearms, putting my legs together, and bending my knees. The "impact" never came, so from then on out i was just faced with the dilemma of safely hanging 30 feet over the ground and trying not to cause an injury in getting myself down.

Chris