which frequencies are all?

In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even
though a given approach may serve only one airport, it's not
associated with that airport, it's associated with a center.

How so? Approach tends to be located at the airport it was established to
serve, not at a center.

True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but served
out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban Sacramento and the
even lovelier Southlands, well away from most of the airports they
serve.

Not that that's terribly relevant to the original point, but never
mind. It's just that the mental image changed almost overnight from a
bunch of people (some of whom you'd actually see occasionally getting
lunch from the local roach coach or talking at local meetings) sitting
around at Oakland or Sacto or Travis in buildings you could see every
time you flew, to a much larger bunch of people you never ever see, a
long way from most airports. Almost like a Center, in fact (but at
least I've *seen* Oakland Center and met some of the people there...).

This is why you may see approach and
departure on the same frequency.


I don't see the connection.

Me neither.

Hamish

I fly out of KROC, and what you experienced makes some sense based on my
experience. I got a tour of the tower and approach/departure control with my
instructor last summer. Clearance/Delivery, Ground and Tower are all located
in the tower cab, close to each other (there isn't room for them to be any
other way. App/Dep is on a lower floor connected by a very sophisticated
tube through which they drop the strips.

In this case, they have a scope in the tower cab, but I think the normal
display is set to a shorter range than the scopes in the app/dep area. I'll
admit I didn't pay close attention to this, and it was a while ago, but that
was my recollection. It is probably adjustable in any event. At slow times,
it is common for one controller to act as two or more of Tower, Ground, and
Clearance/Delivery, but they seem to have different preferences as to
combining frequencies. Some continue to operate on all the normal
frequencies, some ask that you stay on one frequency, usually the tower
frequency, (mostly at arrival), I'll admit I've never run into an all
freq's combined on the atis.

Brad

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
. com...

I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport

for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the

ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on

TowerFrequency". So I tuned to TowerFrequency and made my radio

call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call

approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the

question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which

frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?



"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
TowerFrequency". So I tuned to TowerFrequency and made my radio
call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call
approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the
question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which
frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?

Thank-you in advance.

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but
served out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban
Sacramento and the even lovelier Southlands, well away from most
of the airports they serve.


And not at a Center.

You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".

My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct, but it was the
best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway. The point is not
what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact that "approach" is not
associated with a specific airport.

Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and Chicago airport
groups:

118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)

119.0 - KORD

133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB

120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81

119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5

Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves more than one
airport.

And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach". More evidence that
"approach" is not associated with a specific airport.

Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even
though a given approach may serve only one airport, it's not
associated with that airport, it's associated with a center.


How so? Approach tends to be located at the airport it was established to
serve, not at a center.



This is why you may see approach and
departure on the same frequency.


I don't see the connection.

In article et,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but
served out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban
Sacramento and the even lovelier Southlands, well away from most
of the airports they serve.

And not at a Center.

No one in this thread except maybe Bill Denton ever said approaches
were associated with (or "at") a Center.

However, it's true that there's a tendency in and around the larger
metropolitan areas of the US for approaches *not* to be associated
with, let alone at, a particular airport. I'm based in one such area.

Hamish

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Hash: SHA1

Newps wrote:


SFM wrote:

Tower, ground, and clearance delivery. ATIS is for the airport you listening
to not approach control

Sorry, no.


Actually, yes. Even if Approach was located at the airport in
question, The ATIS is for the AIRPORT, not the Approach into the
airport.

Take KLAS for example. It's a Tower/ATCT (facility where
Approach is located in the same building as Tower), in Class B
airspace. The field is open continuously. After 2am, every night, the
ATIS goes something like:

Info Alpha, 2156Z. Wind wind. vis vis. Sky sky. Temp temp.
Dewpoint dewpoint. Alt altimeter. visual, ILS, etc approaches in
use. Landing runways runways. Departing runways runways. NOTAMS
notams. All services available on freq. Advice on initial contact,
you have information Alpha.

What this means, is that Clearance delivery, Ground, and Tower
are all on freq. This does NOT mean Approach. For the list of the
approach freqs, See AirNav. You should have received a freq to contact,
if you had filed IFR or VFR with flight following (I don't know the
type of plan the OP had filed). If just VFR, then The approach freq
into that area (seeing that it was Class C, the OP should have had)
should have been on hand.

But the ATIS that was originally posted is only for the
AIRPORT, not the approach into the airport. If Approach was combined,
when contacted, the ATC would say "Change to my frequency, xxx.xx".
Approach combines freqs as well, but also still monitor the others
in case someone else does call up.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".


I note that you said, "Even though a given approach may serve only one
airport, it's not associated with that airport, it's associated with a
center." Not only are such facilities associated with the airport they
serve, they are located on them.



My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct,
but it was the best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway.


It was 0% correct.



The point is not what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact
that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.


That's not a fact, that's your opinion. While you're certainly entitled to
your own opinions you are not entitled to your own facts.



Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and
Chicago airport groups:

118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)

119.0 - KORD

133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB

120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81

119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5

Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves
more than one airport.

And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach".


Well, since you believe an approach control is associated with a center, why
don't you call these guys "Chicago Center" when you call them up?



More evidence that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.

Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...


Approach controls ARE associated with airports, that's the reason they were
created.

Let's look at an example of a middle of the road approach control facility;
Madison TRACON in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison approach serves and is
located on Truax Field in Madison. They also serve eight other airports
with SIAPs in the area, but about 85% of MSN TRACON's traffic is generated
by Truax Field. MSN TRACON was created for the purpose of handling
instrument operations at Truax Field. Once it was created it was in a
position to provide services to these other airports and does so, but it
would never have been created if Truax Field was not there. Without Truax
there would be no Madison TRACON and Chicago Center would be providing IFR
services to these other airports on a full-time basis.

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

No one in this thread except maybe Bill Denton ever said approaches
were associated with (or "at") a Center.


Yes, and his was the message I responded to.



However, it's true that there's a tendency in and around the larger
metropolitan areas of the US for approaches *not* to be associated
with, let alone at, a particular airport. I'm based in one such area.


Some TRACONs in close proximity have been combined into single facilities
not located on airports, but approach control facilities are still
associated with airports. After all, providing IFR services to airports is
their reason for being.

If you want to argue semantics, knock yourself out. But you'll have to do it
by yourself 'cause I have a life.

The point is, if you get an ATIS message that all frequencies are combined
on 999.9 for a specific airport, approach WILL NOT be included in the
services that can be reached on that frequency. Because approach is not
associated with any specific airport even though it may only serve a single
airport.

You mentioned Madison, WI. If you are flying into KMSN do you call up
"Madison approach" or "Truax approach"?

I rest my case...



"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".


I note that you said, "Even though a given approach may serve only one
airport, it's not associated with that airport, it's associated with a
center." Not only are such facilities associated with the airport they
serve, they are located on them.



My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct,
but it was the best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway.


It was 0% correct.



The point is not what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact
that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.


That's not a fact, that's your opinion. While you're certainly entitled
to
your own opinions you are not entitled to your own facts.



Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and
Chicago airport groups:

118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)

119.0 - KORD

133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB

120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81

119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5

Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves
more than one airport.

And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach".


Well, since you believe an approach control is associated with a center,
why
don't you call these guys "Chicago Center" when you call them up?



More evidence that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.

Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...


Approach controls ARE associated with airports, that's the reason they
were
created.

Let's look at an example of a middle of the road approach control
facility;
Madison TRACON in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison approach serves and is
located on Truax Field in Madison. They also serve eight other airports
with SIAPs in the area, but about 85% of MSN TRACON's traffic is generated
by Truax Field. MSN TRACON was created for the purpose of handling
instrument operations at Truax Field. Once it was created it was in a
position to provide services to these other airports and does so, but it
would never have been created if Truax Field was not there. Without Truax
there would be no Madison TRACON and Chicago Center would be providing IFR
services to these other airports on a full-time basis.

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...

If you want to argue semantics, knock yourself out. But you'll
have to do it by yourself 'cause I have a life.


I argue with facts and logic.



Because approach is not associated with any specific airport
even though it may only serve a single airport.


Sorry, that's simply not the case. I take it you're not a pilot?



You mentioned Madison, WI. If you are flying into KMSN do you
call up "Madison approach" or "Truax approach"?

I rest my case...


You call "Madison Approach", just as you call "Madison Tower" and "Madison
Ground. Would you also make the case that tower and ground are not
associated with any specific airport?