First couple hours of real CFII dual given....

An enlightening experience first of all. I figured since I had just
got the second 'I' on CFII, and since I have given plenty of regular
dual to Private students, I wouldn't have too much of a problem.

The guy I flew with is working on a phase of the WINGS program and
wanted several hours of hood time shooting approaches and what not. He
flies IFR regularly in his high-performance Piper and is a very
well-rounded and proficient pilot.

I wouldn't say I did terrible, but I was not happy with my
performance. At one point he asked for radar vectors. I was thinking
"oh great" haha... I told him I didn't make a good controller yet and
he just laughed and said that was alright. The radar-vectored course
reversal went ok I suppose, but there was some ambiguity when turning
PT inbound.

Several factors played into this flight. I was with a pilot I had
never flown with before, I was in a plane I had never been in before,
and he had a new Garmin 430 that he was trying to figure out better. I
only have experience on King GPS, so I was not use to the difference.
Nice piece of equipment though. Most of my problem came with my lack
of real IFR experience. Which to say, is some what frustrating. At
what point, does all this start to come together? What helped you hone
your CFII skills? Is this just something that only getting out there
and flying will help? Of course I know the rules and the theory and
all that jazz, but staying ahead of a good IFR pilot is gonna take
some more work. I do look forward to the challenege however, and it
was great fun flying with the guy.

Michael, don't you have something to say about this? :-)

Mike
MU-2


"Blaine" wrote in message
om...
An enlightening experience first of all. I figured since I had just
got the second 'I' on CFII, and since I have given plenty of regular
dual to Private students, I wouldn't have too much of a problem.

The guy I flew with is working on a phase of the WINGS program and
wanted several hours of hood time shooting approaches and what not. He
flies IFR regularly in his high-performance Piper and is a very
well-rounded and proficient pilot.

I wouldn't say I did terrible, but I was not happy with my
performance. At one point he asked for radar vectors. I was thinking
"oh great" haha... I told him I didn't make a good controller yet and
he just laughed and said that was alright. The radar-vectored course
reversal went ok I suppose, but there was some ambiguity when turning
PT inbound.

Several factors played into this flight. I was with a pilot I had
never flown with before, I was in a plane I had never been in before,
and he had a new Garmin 430 that he was trying to figure out better. I
only have experience on King GPS, so I was not use to the difference.
Nice piece of equipment though. Most of my problem came with my lack
of real IFR experience. Which to say, is some what frustrating. At
what point, does all this start to come together? What helped you hone
your CFII skills? Is this just something that only getting out there
and flying will help? Of course I know the rules and the theory and
all that jazz, but staying ahead of a good IFR pilot is gonna take
some more work. I do look forward to the challenege however, and it
was great fun flying with the guy.

(Blaine) wrote:
just got the second 'I' on CFII
[...]
Most of my problem came with my lack of real IFR experience.

Sounds like you've analysed your own problem. You can't teach what you
don't know. Go out and fly IFR as much as you can. Get as much actual
as you can. Go on trips to places outside of your usual training
grounds.

http://av-info.faa.gov/data/designee...du_jul2003.pdf

....for a bit on "technically advanced" and unfamiliar aircraft.

"Blaine" wrote in message
om...
An enlightening experience first of all. I figured since I had just
got the second 'I' on CFII, and since I have given plenty of regular
dual to Private students, I wouldn't have too much of a problem.

The guy I flew with is working on a phase of the WINGS program and
wanted several hours of hood time shooting approaches and what not. He
flies IFR regularly in his high-performance Piper and is a very
well-rounded and proficient pilot.

I wouldn't say I did terrible, but I was not happy with my
performance. At one point he asked for radar vectors. I was thinking
"oh great" haha... I told him I didn't make a good controller yet and
he just laughed and said that was alright. The radar-vectored course
reversal went ok I suppose, but there was some ambiguity when turning
PT inbound.

Several factors played into this flight. I was with a pilot I had
never flown with before, I was in a plane I had never been in before,
and he had a new Garmin 430 that he was trying to figure out better. I
only have experience on King GPS, so I was not use to the difference.
Nice piece of equipment though. Most of my problem came with my lack
of real IFR experience. Which to say, is some what frustrating. At
what point, does all this start to come together? What helped you hone
your CFII skills? Is this just something that only getting out there
and flying will help? Of course I know the rules and the theory and
all that jazz, but staying ahead of a good IFR pilot is gonna take
some more work. I do look forward to the challenege however, and it
was great fun flying with the guy.

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...
http://av-info.faa.gov/data/designee...du_jul2003.pdf

...for a bit on "technically advanced" and unfamiliar aircraft.

It looks like an endorsement for rai.


"Blaine" wrote in message
om...
An enlightening experience first of all. I figured since I had just
got the second 'I' on CFII, and since I have given plenty of regular
dual to Private students, I wouldn't have too much of a problem.

The guy I flew with is working on a phase of the WINGS program and
wanted several hours of hood time shooting approaches and what not. He
flies IFR regularly in his high-performance Piper and is a very
well-rounded and proficient pilot.

I wouldn't say I did terrible, but I was not happy with my
performance. At one point he asked for radar vectors. I was thinking
"oh great" haha... I told him I didn't make a good controller yet and
he just laughed and said that was alright. The radar-vectored course
reversal went ok I suppose, but there was some ambiguity when turning
PT inbound.

Several factors played into this flight. I was with a pilot I had
never flown with before, I was in a plane I had never been in before,
and he had a new Garmin 430 that he was trying to figure out better. I
only have experience on King GPS, so I was not use to the difference.
Nice piece of equipment though. Most of my problem came with my lack
of real IFR experience. Which to say, is some what frustrating. At
what point, does all this start to come together? What helped you hone
your CFII skills? Is this just something that only getting out there
and flying will help? Of course I know the rules and the theory and
all that jazz, but staying ahead of a good IFR pilot is gonna take
some more work. I do look forward to the challenege however, and it
was great fun flying with the guy.

Teach an Instrument ground school sometime. The work to develop it will
really solidify your knowledge! I always take along my Garmin 195 with me
when I have an instrument student for a variety of reasons. Having a handheld in
your lap will really simplify giving the radar vectors, and it might save you
some day if everything in the plane decides to go toes up.
Max T, MCFI


I wouldn't say I did terrible, but I was not happy with my
performance. At one point he asked for radar vectors. I was thinking
"oh great" haha... I told him I didn't make a good controller yet and
he just laughed and said that was alright. The radar-vectored course
reversal went ok I suppose, but there was some ambiguity when turning
PT inbound.

What is even more important is that you sit down after every flight
and carefully analyze everything that happened. If you come across
something new, research it to the fullest extent. Don't assume that
it will all come together after another 100 hours of experience. My
students who spend a lot of time reviewing the details after every
flight gain experience much faster than others. It is for this reason
that I record (audio) all flights. Both the student and I benefit from
this. It is just too easy to forget the details soon after a flight.




Roy Smith wrote in message ...
(Blaine) wrote:
just got the second 'I' on CFII
[...]
Most of my problem came with my lack of real IFR experience.

Sounds like you've analysed your own problem. You can't teach what you
don't know. Go out and fly IFR as much as you can. Get as much actual
as you can. Go on trips to places outside of your usual training
grounds.

At what point, does all this start to come together? What helped you hone
your CFII skills? Is this just something that only getting out there
and flying will help?

Before my CFII, I could fly a good NDB approach, but it was largely by
following rote procedures for figuring out how to make course corrections.
But after several hours of instructing pilots in NDB approaches, I finally
gained a real understanding of how to fly NDB approaches. I could look at
the indicator, determine my position relative to the desired course, and
figure the necessary correction without a lot of mental gymnastics.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

(Blaine) wrote
I wouldn't say I did terrible, but I was not happy with my
performance.

First off, I doubt any instrument instructor is ever really happy with
his first attempts at giving instrument dual. I know I certainly
wasn't. In my case, as in yours, I was giving dual to someone who was
already a proficient instrument pilot (I was checking him out in a new
plane) so I don't think I did much damage. I don't think you did much
damage either - sounds like the guy really only needed a safety pilot.

It's unfortunate, but getting a CFII rating really does nothing to
prepare you to teach instruments. There are all sorts of things an
instrument instructor needs to be able to do that an instrument pilot
need not bother with, and none of them are covered on the typical CFII
ride. Truly it's nothing more than a repeat of the instrument ride
from the right seat.

At one point he asked for radar vectors. I was thinking
"oh great" haha... I told him I didn't make a good controller yet and
he just laughed and said that was alright.

Vectoring is an acquired skill, and one you will need to acquire.
It's also a perfect example of something a CFII needs to be able to
do, but never learns. Fortunately, after you get vectored for a few
dozen approaches, you generally get a feel for how it's done.

The instructions are all issued in the same format, and the format is
given in the AIM. Just sit down and practice issuing them. With a
little practice, you can be belting out "Piper 123, you are 4 miles
from GOFUS, turn left heading 320, maintain 3000 until established,
cleared for the VOR-D" with the best of them. Don't worry too much if
you don't get the wording exactly right - controllers often mess it up
too.

As for the actual headings and altitudes - just think about the sort
of pattern the controllers normally use, and call the headings and
altitudes. If you need to, practice with little toy airplanes and
charts. A handheld GPS is great for 'cheating' especially at night or
if the terrain is featureless. Besides, if you're going to instruct
in actual you need one anyway.

This is going to sound brutal, but if you haven't done enough
approaches under IFR to have a feel for how controllers vector you,
you really shouldn't be trying to teach anyone instruments. If you
haven't gotten to the point where the vectors on an approach are
predictable (meaning you usually know what the controller is going to
say before he says it) you need to go out there and fly IFR some more.

I was in a plane I had never been in before,

That can be a factor - or not. It's no big deal to instruct in an
unfamiliar airplane if you have plenty of experience in that CLASS of
airplane. By class I don't mean the FAA definition. In fact I really
don't have a definition, but I know it when I see it.

My first experiences in a Beech Bonanza and a Piper Lance were
instructing in them - but I already had hundreds of hours in different
complex airplanes of that size and speed, so it was OK. I would not
hesitate to instruct in a Viking or a C-210, though I have flown
neither. I would not attempt to instruct in, say, a Malibu or a
Lancair. In fact, a good rule of thumb is this - if you would not get
into an airplane and comfortably (meaning without being nervous) fly
it without having someone check you out, you shouldn't be trying to
instruct in it. If you've never checked yourself out in an airplane,
you probably shouldn't be trying to teach in a make and model airplane
you've never flown.

and he had a new Garmin 430 that he was trying to figure out better. I
only have experience on King GPS, so I was not use to the difference.

What I think of the user interfaces on IFR GPS units doesn't bear
repeating, but the truth is you really shouldn't be trying to teach
someone to use avionics you can't use yourself. However, the same
principle applies here as with unfamiliar airplanes. Once you've
flown behind several different kinds of GPS, you get to where you
pretty much figure them out, at least for the basics of going to a fix
and flying an approach. But if you've only ever used one kind, well,
you're hosed.

Most of my problem came with my lack
of real IFR experience.

I'm glad you realize this.

Is this just something that only getting out there
and flying will help?

'Fraid so. If you can't do it, you can't teach it.

A prerequisite to teaching IFR is being comfortable IFR. Most of that
comfort comes from knowing what's coming next most of the time, and
that doesn't happen without experience. Once you gain experience,
much of this works itself out. With experience, vectoring is no big
deal because you've been vectored so much you know what to expect.
With experience, you can teach the pilot not how to use one particular
gadget, because you may not be familiar with it either, but how to
figure out unfamiliar gadgets, because you've done it enough times for
yourself that you know how to go about it. With experience, you can
challenge even a very experienced instrument pilot - because you will
have made your share of mistakes, and seen your share of mistakes, and
will have started to see a pattern - what kinds of mistakes pilots
will make, and under what circumstances.

Even if you can do it, you can't necessarily teach it. It will still
take time to figure out how to pass on your knowledge and experience.
It will still take practice to subtly maneuver an advanced pilot into
making mistakes so he can learn from them. But without experience -
well, you simply don't have a chance.

Of course I know the rules and the theory and
all that jazz, but staying ahead of a good IFR pilot is gonna take
some more work.

Just wait till you need to stay ahead of an airline captain.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
(Blaine) wrote
I wouldn't say I did terrible, but I was not happy with my
performance.


snip

As for the actual headings and altitudes - just think about the sort
of pattern the controllers normally use, and call the headings and
altitudes. If you need to, practice with little toy airplanes and
charts. A handheld GPS is great for 'cheating' especially at night or
if the terrain is featureless. Besides, if you're going to instruct
in actual you need one anyway.

Huh? care to explain that?