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#11
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
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#12
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:36:54 -0000, wrote:
Most airports don't even offer MOGAS and you think they are going to install huge solar arrays and cryo-coolers to produce liquid hydrogen? Perhaps. Yeah, sure, when hell freezes over and hippopotamus fly. If my preliminary calculations are near correct, I would expect LH2 generating facilities to reside on-premises to avoid the loss of efficiency in transporting it for delivery. Your conclusion that 'huge solar arrays' would be necessary may be incorrect. Have a look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PWESWqhD8s to get an idea of what may be involved in generating LH2, but assume pure H2 generated by electrolysis. Calculate the approximate power required per liter of LH2 produced, if it is similar to LN2 produced in the video. Given the ~3X energy density of LH2 compared to JetA, and the ~90% efficiency of electric motors, compared to ~20-30% efficiency of IC engines, I would expect significantly less fuel to be required to achieve today's performance and range. |
#13
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:36:54 -0000, wrote: Most airports don't even offer MOGAS and you think they are going to install huge solar arrays and cryo-coolers to produce liquid hydrogen? Perhaps. Yeah, sure, when hell freezes over and hippopotamus fly. If my preliminary calculations are near correct, I would expect LH2 generating facilities to reside on-premises to avoid the loss of efficiency in transporting it for delivery. Your conclusion that 'huge solar arrays' would be necessary may be incorrect. Have a look here Don't forget the energy required to do something with the hydrogen to make it usefull, such as compression. And again, if airports won't offer MOGAS, what in the world makes you think there is any motivation to install a hydrogen production facility? -- Jim Pennino |
#14
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:36:54 -0000, wrote: By saying "dirty gaseous H2" you were trying to say H2 produced without other emissions or byproducts. Why didn't you just say that instead of the silly "dirty gaseous H2"? I guess senescence has impacted my ability to accurately express my thoughts. Or, perhaps I was expecting the less pedantic to get the idea. :-) Or perhaps it was just sloppy writting. -- Jim Pennino |
#16
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:36:54 -0000, wrote: snip Lots of things are "feasible", but that does not mean they are economic, practical or even legal. It is feasible to make a motor from a birthday candle, a permanet magnet, and a Zippo lighter flint, but you will not find such motors powering anything other than a physics class demonstration. Well, consider that Michael Faraday created the first electric motor with a piece of wire dangling into a cup of mercury. That ultimately lead directly to Tesla electric automobiles achieving astounding ~three-second zero-to-sixty-mph automobile acceleration. Utter nonsense. BTW, the Tesla came out dead last in over all quality. Even the brilliant scientist may not appreciate what he has discovered. To wit, Heinrich Hertz, after discovering and proving the existence of radio waves, postulated, "I do not think that the radio waves I have discovered will have any practical application." Yawn. snip romanticized arm waving snip Fantastic as in pixie dust, flying bull frogs, unicorns, and pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Perhaps. Lacking any supporting objective evidence/documentation to support your allegation, it's difficult to take it seriously. Perhaps, you'd care to provide quantifiable facts that support your contention. Which part? That all the world's government's are opposed to the production of 6Li or the utter fantasy that airports that won't install MOGAS tanks are going to install particle accerators (also highly regulated)? snip Ah, free advice; worth every penny. :-) When you mention 'safety,' I hope you're not thinking Hindenberg Disaster. After all, we routinely use highly flammable, if not explosive, gasoline with reasonable safety in our current transportation vehicles. What part of key component to thermonuclear bombs are you failing to understand? When you mention 'economic,' I agree there will be significant expense in developing a network of fueling stations, however Nikola Motor Company intends to just that for compressed H2. See: https://nikolamotor.com/hydrogen Whoop de ****ing do. There are 12 MOGAS stations less than a mile from KCCB which has a large number of aircraft that can run on MOGAS yet KCCB does not sell MOGAS. snip irrelevant crap about auto fuel stations The 'political' issues you mention may be significant for the use of 6Li, but 6Li is not crucial for the system I envision. Let's forget about it for now. So, how many hours would you estimate you might require to do a serious analysis of the requirements to electrically split water into its component molecules, and produce LH2 from that pure H3 with a cryo-cooler, and quantify a comparison of LH2 feeding fuel-cells to produce motive electric power, taking into consideration the reduced weight/mass of LH2 (density: 0.07099 g/cm3) compared to kerosene (density: 0.78?0.81 g/cm3)? Already done, many, many, many times by many, many people. And it is orders of magnitude more expensive than a MOGAS tank, pump, and credit card reader. -- Jim Pennino |
#17
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 00:00:07 -0000, wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:36:54 -0000, wrote: Most airports don't even offer MOGAS and you think they are going to install huge solar arrays and cryo-coolers to produce liquid hydrogen? Perhaps. Yeah, sure, when hell freezes over and hippopotamus fly. If my preliminary calculations are near correct, I would expect LH2 generating facilities to reside on-premises to avoid the loss of efficiency in transporting it for delivery. Your conclusion that 'huge solar arrays' would be necessary may be incorrect. Have a look here Don't forget the energy required to do something with the hydrogen to make it usefull, such as compression. Liquid H2 doesn't require compression, only cooling; LH2 is stored at ambient atmospheric pressure. You are correct to mention the power required to produce LH2. It is surprising how little power is required by a cryo-cooler. The cryo-cooler in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PWESWqhD8s only required ~150 Watts for ~one hour to produce ~four oz of liquid air. And again, if airports won't offer MOGAS, what in the world makes you think there is any motivation to install a hydrogen production facility? You are thinking in the immediate present; I'm thinking in the future. A week or so ago, who would have thought that white people throughout the world would demonstrate in the streets by the thousands for black equality. These are remarkable times indeed. Have you been following the advancements being made in physics and cosmology lately? Exciting. |
#18
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
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#19
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 00:00:07 -0000, wrote: Larry Dighera wrote: On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 23:36:54 -0000, wrote: snip Don't forget the energy required to do something with the hydrogen to make it usefull, such as compression. Liquid H2 doesn't require compression, only cooling; LH2 is stored at ambient atmospheric pressure. What part of "such as" did you not understand? You do in fact have to compress hydrogen to get LH2 in significant quantities. Did you think you just put it in a -430 F refrigerator? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_hydrogen Try doing a google search for liquid hydrogen production to see what it actually takes to produce LH2 in significant quantities. You are correct to mention the power required to produce LH2. It is surprising how little power is required by a cryo-cooler. The cryo-cooler in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PWESWqhD8s only required ~150 Watts for ~one hour to produce ~four oz of liquid air. Whoop de ****ing do, yet another tiny garage lash up of surplus equipment. The energy required to cool a mass by 500 F is a themodynamics problem. To know the true energy requirement, you also need to know the energy efficiency of your cooling device. And again, if airports won't offer MOGAS, what in the world makes you think there is any motivation to install a hydrogen production facility? You are thinking in the immediate present; I'm thinking in the future. I am thinking about known physics and engineering. While you are fantasizing, be sure to include dilithium crystal warp drive. snip irrelevant BLM comment -- Jim Pennino |
#20
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ZeroAvia's Val Miftakhov makes a compelling case for hydrogen aviation
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 02:15:58 -0000, wrote: My detailed engineering analysis can be had for $150/hr. So, how many hours would you estimate you might require to do a serious analysis of the requirements to electrically split water into its component molecules, and produce LH2 from that pure H3 with a cryo-cooler, and quantify a comparison of LH2 feeding fuel-cells to produce motive electric power, taking into consideration the reduced weight/mass of LH2 (density: 0.07099 g/cm3) compared to kerosene (density: 0.78?0.81 g/cm3)? Already done, many, many, many times by many, many people. So, your offer was insincere, eh? Grow up. I noticed that you failed to provide even one reference to support your allegation that the engineering had already been "many, many, many" times. There have been billions upon billions of dollars expended on hydrogen research by a lot of different people around the globe. Look it up yourself, google is your friend. It's become difficult to take you seriously. Oh well ... I'm not the one touting a convicted pimp as the one that has solved the problems of hydrogen storage in his garage when all the world's real scientists and engineers with billions of dollars haven't. Stay safe, and be well, my friend. -- Jim Pennino |
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