Pegasus time limit

wrote:
Doug wrote:
It really is hard to believe that a mistranslation will eventually ground 50
gliders. I think more pressure on the FAA is also needed too. Maybe wishful
thinking, but we owners should try *anything* to protect our investment,
including a new translation.

Doug

"Ian" wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
According to the FAA, there are approximately 50 Centrair Pegase 101
gliders in the US. I don't know how effective we are as a group, but
letters to Centrair and emails couldn't do to much harm.

If the problem is - have I read this right - that a mistranslation
turned a 3,000 hour inspection into a 3,000 hour life, why don't the 50
of you club together, pay for another professional translation, then
ask Centrair simply to inform the FAA by AD that the documentation has
been upgraded?

Minimum work on their part, and probably won't cost each of you that
much.

Sudden thought. What does the UK documentation for the Pegasus say?

Ian


If the problem is - have I read this right - that a mistranslation
turned a 3,000 hour inspection into a 3,000 hour life....

That what it is. When I get home I will post on this group exact
language from the manual. It is very obvious to me that it is a
translation issue. On the other hand I don't buy that the FAA is so
helpless. We simply need to pressure them until they will take an
action. There are some Pegs here in the US with 3000 hours+, my is only
1100 hours or should I say "I don't care because I have a plenty of
time? " They were importing the Pegs into the US without a flight
manual in English. I don't emember if the pre-certification ships are
now standard or experimental category but nonetheless something needs
to be done. They are perfectly good gliders capable of some impressive
flights and I think we, the owners of Pegase sailplanes, need to write
a letter(s) or hire a lawyer (how the hell do you spell that...lawyer
or layer) or do something. It is incredible to me that a stupid phrase
in someones poor translation is a base for grounding a good and
airworthy glider.

Jacek
Washington State

P.S. I am curious what the UK manual says....maybe someone can post
that info here and then we can take the issue with the FAA and show
them the UK flight manual, maybe they will listen and that might give
them a chance of a different approach with Centrair?


O'K...here is what the manual says:

5.01 - Life Limits

The structure life limit is 3000 hours.

5.1 - Types of Inspections and Intervals

-Small maintenance inspection (S.M.I.)
The small maintenance inspection has it be executed after every glider
assembly
or every 100 flight hours.

-Annual inspection
The program for annual inspection has to be executed when the first of
the two following limits is reached:
-Yearly,
-After 500 flight hours

-General inspection
The program for general inspection should be executed when the first of
the two following limits is reached:
-Every five years
-After 3000 flight hours.

I copied the text above word for word from my sailplane flight manual
dated Dec. 16th 1983. If you really read this carefully it also means
that when you assemble glider you need to have a mechanic (A&P in case
of the US) inspect the glider! Also, the paragraph "General
Inspection" does refer to 5 years- that also means (or can it be
interpreted by another inspector) that the sailplane needs to be
discarded after 5 years ???!!! This is clearly case of poor translation
and in some degree a case of over-zealous FAA inspector

You cannot convince me otherwise. In the mean time we need to keep
pressing the FAA for a corrective action or deletion of this
"controversial" AD.

Jacek
Washington State
Peg Serial #156

Jacek, Doug et al,

Jacek's quote from the Pegase Owner's Manual is accurate. There is NO
translation problem. The wording is exact and clear. Unfortunately, the
Centrair factory made a mistake by saying two different things on two
different pages. One statement said "3,000 hour service life" and the
other referred to a "Five year or 3,000 hour inspection." When the
glider was certificated in the US, the reference to the 3,000 hour
service life was used for issuance of the STC- mainly because Centrair
did not provide a 3,000 hour inspection plan. Apparently, they had
promised to do so, but went out of business before coming up with it.

When they ceased operation, the Type Certificate was taken over by a
new entity- Societe Nouvelle Centrair (S.N. Centrair). They also failed
to offer an inspection protocol. That is where we sit now.

When the FAA inquired about the discrepancy in the two pages, S.N.
Centrair once again failed to provide a plan for inspection and
reiterated that the 3,000 hour service life is applicable in the US.
Once the FAA gets information like that from the manufacturer or the
holder of the Type Certificate, the procedure is cut and dried. The FAA
is not allowed to make judgments contrary to factory information
involving service life- unless the FAA determines that the service life
from the factory is too high. S.N. Centrair REDUCED the life limit,
therefore, an AD was issued.

If S.N. Centrair had said that the 3,000 hour inspection was the
governing reference, we would not have this problem. Since no
inspection plan is specifically offered, interpretation could have been
left open to the A&P or I.A. as to what needed to be checked.

As a result of the French holder of the Type Certificate specifically
instructing the FAA to disregard the reference to a 3,000 hour
inspection, the FAA had no choice but to issue an AD requiring owners
to use a pen to cross out the inspection reference. Unless S.N.
Centrair reverses this instruction, the AD stays in effect. If they DO
reverse the decision, the FAA (according to Greg) would be more than
happy to issue an amended AD.

This happened last year, when an AD was issued concerning elevator and
aileron hinge pins on the Centrair 101 gliders. S.N. Centrair issued a
Sevice Bulletin mandating replacement of hinge pins on a specific range
of gliders by serial number and/or hinge pin delivery date. This
bulletin was turned into an AD that required replacement of pins in ALL
Centrair aircraft, regardless of serial number. When this was pointed
out to the FAA, Greg rewrote the AD and we were off the hook. He hopes
something similar can be done in the case of the service life limit,
but it has to come from S.N. Centrair.

Once again, TRANSLATION IS NOT THE ISSUE!

Mark Mocho

So I guess we need the equivalent of a class action lawsuit against SN
Centrair to come up with the 3k hr inspection. Anyone know of a good, cheap
law firm in France?

I'm not bumping against the 3000 hour limit yet as my Pegasus has about 1200
hrs on it. But if we want to sell the glider it sure would be nice to have
that limit dropped.

I am curious to know how the manual reads in other countries since they
don't seem to have the same problem. Anyone have a Brit, German, or French
version floating around?

Doug

"ASM" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Doug wrote:
It really is hard to believe that a mistranslation will eventually
ground 50
gliders. I think more pressure on the FAA is also needed too. Maybe
wishful
thinking, but we owners should try *anything* to protect our
investment,
including a new translation.

Doug

"Ian" wrote in message
ups.com...

wrote:
According to the FAA, there are approximately 50 Centrair Pegase 101
gliders in the US. I don't know how effective we are as a group, but
letters to Centrair and emails couldn't do to much harm.

If the problem is - have I read this right - that a mistranslation
turned a 3,000 hour inspection into a 3,000 hour life, why don't the
50
of you club together, pay for another professional translation, then
ask Centrair simply to inform the FAA by AD that the documentation
has
been upgraded?

Minimum work on their part, and probably won't cost each of you that
much.

Sudden thought. What does the UK documentation for the Pegasus say?

Ian


If the problem is - have I read this right - that a mistranslation
turned a 3,000 hour inspection into a 3,000 hour life....

That what it is. When I get home I will post on this group exact
language from the manual. It is very obvious to me that it is a
translation issue. On the other hand I don't buy that the FAA is so
helpless. We simply need to pressure them until they will take an
action. There are some Pegs here in the US with 3000 hours+, my is only
1100 hours or should I say "I don't care because I have a plenty of
time? " They were importing the Pegs into the US without a flight
manual in English. I don't emember if the pre-certification ships are
now standard or experimental category but nonetheless something needs
to be done. They are perfectly good gliders capable of some impressive
flights and I think we, the owners of Pegase sailplanes, need to write
a letter(s) or hire a lawyer (how the hell do you spell that...lawyer
or layer) or do something. It is incredible to me that a stupid phrase
in someones poor translation is a base for grounding a good and
airworthy glider.

Jacek
Washington State

P.S. I am curious what the UK manual says....maybe someone can post
that info here and then we can take the issue with the FAA and show
them the UK flight manual, maybe they will listen and that might give
them a chance of a different approach with Centrair?


O'K...here is what the manual says:

5.01 - Life Limits

The structure life limit is 3000 hours.

5.1 - Types of Inspections and Intervals

-Small maintenance inspection (S.M.I.)
The small maintenance inspection has it be executed after every glider
assembly
or every 100 flight hours.

-Annual inspection
The program for annual inspection has to be executed when the first of
the two following limits is reached:
-Yearly,
-After 500 flight hours

-General inspection
The program for general inspection should be executed when the first of
the two following limits is reached:
-Every five years
-After 3000 flight hours.

I copied the text above word for word from my sailplane flight manual
dated Dec. 16th 1983. If you really read this carefully it also means
that when you assemble glider you need to have a mechanic (A&P in case
of the US) inspect the glider! Also, the paragraph "General
Inspection" does refer to 5 years- that also means (or can it be
interpreted by another inspector) that the sailplane needs to be
discarded after 5 years ???!!! This is clearly case of poor translation
and in some degree a case of over-zealous FAA inspector

You cannot convince me otherwise. In the mean time we need to keep
pressing the FAA for a corrective action or deletion of this
"controversial" AD.

Jacek
Washington State
Peg Serial #156

ASM wrote:

O'K...here is what the manual says:

US manual, I assume?

-Small maintenance inspection (S.M.I.)
The small maintenance inspection has it be executed after every glider
assembly
or every 100 flight hours.

I copied the text above word for word from my sailplane flight manual
dated Dec. 16th 1983. If you really read this carefully it also means
that when you assemble glider you need to have a mechanic (A&P in case
of the US) inspect the glider!

I think - someone may wish to correct me - that that is indeed the case
in France. I flew at Le Blanc a few times and at St Auban once, and my
understanding was that in both places French gliders had to be
assembled and checked by qualified personnel.

Ian

Ian wrote:
ASM wrote:

O'K...here is what the manual says:

US manual, I assume?

-Small maintenance inspection (S.M.I.)
The small maintenance inspection has it be executed after every glider
assembly
or every 100 flight hours.

I copied the text above word for word from my sailplane flight manual
dated Dec. 16th 1983. If you really read this carefully it also means
that when you assemble glider you need to have a mechanic (A&P in case
of the US) inspect the glider!

I think - someone may wish to correct me - that that is indeed the case
in France. I flew at Le Blanc a few times and at St Auban once, and my
understanding was that in both places French gliders had to be
assembled and checked by qualified personnel.

Ian

To All Pegs Owners in the US:

The problem can be resolved using a lawyer. I spend 4 days calling
around and made some phone calls in Europe. The best answer is a class
action against S.A.Centrair. Please email me directly.

Jacek
Washington State

What a brilliant idea !!
Send the hords of lawyers to France.
The French must be trembling with fear now !

Lets be a little bit more realistic and analyze the business aspects.
Here is a French company that has successfully (and legally) limited its liability exposure in the US market, albeit in a sneaky way.
(Other companies are not even bothering anymore with offering product in the US due to the liability hassle)
The FAA nicely supported SN Centrair by taking the over-time Pegs out of the market.
Why in hell would Centrair pick up new liabilities in the US territory, where they have exited the glider market long time ago.
From a business perspective, they would have to be complete fools to re-engage on this.

For you Peg drivers, I hope that I am wrong. I know the Peg is a nice ship.

Originally Posted by

Ian wrote:[color=blue][i]
To All Pegs Owners in the US:
The problem can be resolved using a lawyer. I spend 4 days calling
around and made some phone calls in Europe. The best answer is a class
action against S.A.Centrair. Please email me directly.

Jacek
Washington State

Oh, my it seems I have lost my Pegasus logbook. Whatever will I do?

I believe the procedure is to buy a new logbook and then make an entry
showing estimated total time.........................

Let's see now, I think it had something like 600 hours on it. Yep, it
was exactly 600 hours.................Done!

When the bureaucracy goes mad, a little creative compliance is called
for. Just to be on the safe side, one might have a glider repair
facility perform a 3000 hour inspection using another manufacturer's
checklist. Grob has a very thorough one.
JJ

JJ Sinclair wrote:
Oh, my it seems I have lost my Pegasus logbook. Whatever will I do?

Well, JJ, you ain't gonna like what happens if you do so. I heard from
a pretty reliable source that a Learjet in Cancun was auctioned off for
$100,000 because the logbooks disappeared with the pilot's luggage and
the FAA basically said that, without documentation, the airframe is
assumed to have reached its service life. So if you didn't have 3,000
hours on your Pegasus before, lose the logbooks and the FAA will say
that you do.

Besides, documenting the assorted AD's issued on the glider over the
years will get a bit more complex at your next annual. Receipts will
help, but logbook entries are needed also.

Mark Mocho

What a switch! It ain't the 70's no more! Many an
aircraft has been sold with problematic logbooks.
The attitude used to be that you didn't junk a perfectly
good airplane because something had happened to the
logbooks; that was unconscionable and SOMETHING could
be done about it.


At 19:48 04 January 2007, wrote:

JJ Sinclair wrote:
Oh, my it seems I have lost my Pegasus logbook. Whatever
will I do?

Well, JJ, you ain't gonna like what happens if you
do so. I heard from
a pretty reliable source that a Learjet in Cancun was
auctioned off for
$100,000 because the logbooks disappeared with the
pilot's luggage and
the FAA basically said that, without documentation,
the airframe is
assumed to have reached its service life. So if you
didn't have 3,000
hours on your Pegasus before, lose the logbooks and
the FAA will say
that you do.

Besides, documenting the assorted AD's issued on the
glider over the
years will get a bit more complex at your next annual.
Receipts will
help, but logbook entries are needed also.

Mark Mocho

Sell them in France; ship them over, get them certified
for 12,000hrs there, and re-import with a French POH
and fly experimental.

At 10:12 04 January 2007, Dumass wrote:[color=blue][i]

What a brilliant idea !!
Send the hords of lawyers to France.
The French must be trembling with fear now !

Lets be a little bit more realistic and analyze the
business aspects.
Here is a French company that has successfully (and
legally) limited
its liability exposure in the US market, albeit in
a sneaky way.
(Other companies are not even bothering anymore with
offering product
in the US due to the liability hassle)
The FAA nicely supported SN Centrair by taking the
over-time Pegs out
of the market.
Why in hell would Centrair pick up new liabilities
in the US territory,
where they have exited the glider market long time
ago.
From a business perspective, they would have to be
complete fools to
re-engage on this.

For you Peg drivers, I hope that I am wrong. I know
the Peg is a nice
ship.

Wrote:
Ian wrote:
To All Pegs Owners in the US:
The problem can be resolved using a lawyer. I spend
4 days calling
around and made some phone calls in Europe. The best
answer is a class
action against S.A.Centrair. Please email me directly.

Jacek
Washington State




--
dumass