Another Blow to Airbus

On Aug 8, 11:12*am, John Smith wrote:
a wrote:
One wonders if in fly by wire airplanes pilots might assume the
software will *protect the mechanical parts.

One would hope that those pilots did receive proper training.

Somewhere in the body of the cited article it's mentioned pilots
received training or the like warning them of the danger. In the real
world, however, if a circumstance occurs, like wake turbulence, and a
pilot thinks full rudder deflection is needed that foot is going to
push hard on the rudder. If control pressures didn't supply enough
feedback for me to know I was approaching some limit I would say
there's a design flaw. If the NTSB conclusion is supported the Airbus
folks have a problem that a computer fix, as opposed to training, is
going to have to solve.

In article
,
a wrote:

A couple of days ago the NTSB found the 320 series to have too
sensitive a rudder, it can be torn off with peddle pressures. What's
especially of interest is the problem seems to persist even when crews
are given special training about the problem.


I would guess that Airbus has a lot of pressure to peddle them! ;)

That said, a friend (AA -- ret) has no kind words for the 320 -- he much
preferred the Boeings.


There are some details here.

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...ntsb-airbus-a3
20-has-rudder-flaw-linked-to-deadly-2001-crash/1

The more I fly and the older I get the more I want to be gentle with
the flight controls. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons
lurking near the edges of the envelope.

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

.. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons
lurking near the edges of the envelope.


Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:
On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

On Aug 9, 3:15*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

We SEL GA aviators don't get to play in the coffin corner, Dudley. I
can't get the Mooney to those altitudes and speeds (dammit!).

On Aug 10, 9:11*am, a wrote:
On Aug 9, 3:15*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:



On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

We SEL GA aviators don't get to play in the coffin corner, Dudley. I
can't get the Mooney to those altitudes and speeds (dammit!).

Hi a;

I'm assuming you are referring to the classic definition of the
"coffin corner" found at altitude. Although upset departure can indeed
be an issue for operation in the coffin corner this isn't what I'm
talking about when I say the left side of the envelope.
Just as an aside; there is another coffin corner seldom discussed
outside the high performance community. It's defined as the area on
the back side of the power curve where you cross the line where adding
power will no longer maintain altitude or rate of sink and ONLY angle
of attack reduction will accomplish that.
Back to current comment :-)
On a simple v/g diagram for ANY aircraft, the lift line that defines
aoa crit runs defines a g slope that runs from 0 on up to the Va
corner at the limit load factor limit on a GA airplane ( the corner
velocity for a fighter). This line defines the stall speeds above 1g
(acellerated stall) which increase as the square of the load factor.
It's violating this lift line on the left side of the envelope where a
vast majority of GA accidents occur.
Good CFI's will naturally cover teaching a student how to avoid the
Vne area on the right side and the limit load factor on the top, but
GOOD flight instructors will spend a LOT of time teaching their
students the dangers that live along that left side lift line.
Vne is a solid limit. So is the limit load factor, but the limits
along that left side lift line are variable and it's a wise pilot who
spends a whole lot of time learning how that long sloping lift line
equates to their exact aircraft, be it an airliner, a jet fighter, or
a J3 Cub :-)
Hope this helps a bit.
Dudley

On Aug 10, 9:55*am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
On Aug 10, 9:11*am, a wrote:



On Aug 9, 3:15*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

We SEL GA aviators don't get to play in the coffin corner, Dudley. I
can't get the Mooney to those altitudes and speeds (dammit!).

Hi a;

I'm assuming you are referring to the classic definition of the
"coffin corner" found at altitude. Although upset departure can indeed
be an issue for operation in the coffin corner this isn't what I'm
talking about when I say the left side of the envelope.
Just as an aside; there is another coffin corner seldom discussed
outside the high performance community. It's defined as the area on
the back side of the power curve where you cross the line where adding
power will no longer maintain altitude or rate of sink and ONLY angle
of attack reduction will accomplish that.
Back to current comment :-)
On a simple v/g diagram for ANY aircraft, the lift line that defines
aoa crit runs defines a g slope that runs from 0 on up to the Va
corner at the limit load factor limit on a GA airplane ( the corner
velocity for a fighter). This line defines the stall speeds above 1g
(acellerated stall) which increase as the square of the load factor.
It's violating this lift line on the left side of the envelope where a
vast majority of GA accidents occur.
Good CFI's will naturally cover teaching a student how to avoid the
Vne area on the right side and the limit load factor on the top, but
GOOD flight instructors will spend a LOT of time teaching their
students the dangers that live along that left side lift line.
Vne is a solid limit. So is the limit load factor, but the limits
along that left side lift line are variable and it's a wise pilot who
spends a whole lot of time learning how that long sloping lift line
equates to their exact aircraft, be it an airliner, a jet fighter, or
a J3 Cub :-)
Hope this helps a bit.
Dudley

The only times I get close to the edges of the Mooney's envelope is
when landing and doing proficiency stuff. Other times my excursions in
the envelope are pretty much postage stamp sized, stuck dead center of
the envelope. Mooneys are 'get from here to there' airplanes, and I'd
rather not wrinkle my suit, or those of my pax, when doing that.

I wanna Pitts!

On Aug 10, 10:46*am, a wrote:
On Aug 10, 9:55*am, Dudley Henriques wrote:



On Aug 10, 9:11*am, a wrote:

On Aug 9, 3:15*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:

On Aug 9, 1:47*pm, RST Engineering wrote:

On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. *Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. *That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

We SEL GA aviators don't get to play in the coffin corner, Dudley. I
can't get the Mooney to those altitudes and speeds (dammit!).

Hi a;

I'm assuming you are referring to the classic definition of the
"coffin corner" found at altitude. Although upset departure can indeed
be an issue for operation in the coffin corner this isn't what I'm
talking about when I say the left side of the envelope.
Just as an aside; there is another coffin corner seldom discussed
outside the high performance community. It's defined as the area on
the back side of the power curve where you cross the line where adding
power will no longer maintain altitude or rate of sink and ONLY angle
of attack reduction will accomplish that.
Back to current comment :-)
On a simple v/g diagram for ANY aircraft, the lift line that defines
aoa crit runs defines a g slope that runs from 0 on up to the Va
corner at the limit load factor limit on a GA airplane ( the corner
velocity for a fighter). This line defines the stall speeds above 1g
(acellerated stall) which increase as the square of the load factor.
It's violating this lift line on the left side of the envelope where a
vast majority of GA accidents occur.
Good CFI's will naturally cover teaching a student how to avoid the
Vne area on the right side and the limit load factor on the top, but
GOOD flight instructors will spend a LOT of time teaching their
students the dangers that live along that left side lift line.
Vne is a solid limit. So is the limit load factor, but the limits
along that left side lift line are variable and it's a wise pilot who
spends a whole lot of time learning how that long sloping lift line
equates to their exact aircraft, be it an airliner, a jet fighter, or
a J3 Cub :-)
Hope this helps a bit.
Dudley

The only times I get close to the edges of the Mooney's envelope is
when landing and doing proficiency stuff. Other times my excursions in
the envelope are pretty much postage stamp sized, stuck dead center of
the envelope. Mooneys are 'get from here to there' airplanes, and I'd
rather not wrinkle my suit, or those of my pax, when doing that.

I wanna Pitts!

If you're operating within your envelope you are flying safely. Goes
without saying of course. This is the stated objective of all flight
instruction and good piloting in normal GA.
Aerobatics of course put you in a higher level of pilot performance
where for example, when flying an aggressive display, you will be
taking your aircraft well outside that left side lift limit line in
various maneuvers but doing it deliberately and with purpose. The Vne
and limit load factor parameters still apply however, even when
engaging in the most aggressive acro.
I was of course not a military pilot but spent most of my career with
military pilots and flying military high performance aircraft. Fighter
pilots have an interesting outlook on their flight envelopes.
As another aside and in no way relevant to GA; In the fighter
community, the flight envelope is treated with a slightly different
kind of respect. Most fighter pilots will admit that you can fly a
fighter within it's normal envelope, but limiting yourself to this
area can get you killed when engaged by a pilot who knows how to take
his aircraft beyond the normal limits. To be successful and above all
to stay alive in air combat of any kind, the pilots who survive to
reach retirement take the Dash 1 or Natops for their aircraft and
learn to fly and fight in the area explicitly noted as the areas in
the envelope to avoid in their manuals :-))
Dudley Henriques

William Langewiesche, son of Wolfgang (Stick and Rudder) and a very
capable pilot and writer, makes the case that the Airbus design had as
much to do with the "Miracle on the Hudson" outcome as the pilots. Quite
likely that the Airbus design has prevented more accidents than it may
have caused.
--
In brief, I spend half my time trying to learn the secrets of other
writers -- to apply them to the expression of my own thoughts.
- Shirley Ann Grau

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
On Aug 9, 1:47 pm, RST Engineering wrote:
On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 05:05:50 -0700 (PDT), a wrote:

. Remember, fellow aviators, there are demons

lurking near the edges of the envelope.

Or as my first flight instructor told me, "The envelope has airspeed
going horizontal and altitude going vertical. Pushing the envelope
puts you into the upper right corner of the envelope. That's also
where the stamp gets cancelled."

Jim

Actually, if the truth be known, not that exceeding the right side
won't get you killed, it's the LEFT side of the envelope that gets
most pilots in trouble. :-))
Dudley Henriques

--------------------

Or, to put it in a grossly understated way, the part of the envelope where
you would write "Attn: Whomever" is likely to get your attention!

Peter