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Airplane prices are ridiculous



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 10th 10, 01:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mark
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Posts: 815
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

For me personally after looking at the economy, I'd
rather keep that much money in a safe place right
now drawing a humble rate of interest than to spend
it on a plane worth 35K that costs 120K.

---
Mark
  #2  
Old September 10th 10, 01:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

Mark wrote:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.

For me personally after looking at the economy, I'd
rather keep that much money in a safe place right
now drawing a humble rate of interest than to spend
it on a plane worth 35K that costs 120K.

---
Mark


When airplanes become mass produced in millions per year by robots,
the price won't be much more than cars.

Of course, airplanes are never going to be mass produced in millions per
year by robots.

In term of cost, the best time to buy stuff is when the economy is down
and people are dealing.


--
Jim Pennino

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  #3  
Old September 10th 10, 07:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

Mark writes:

Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.


A shrinking market, ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation, and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes. These factors are absent or nearly
absent for automobiles, which have a huge, expanding market, relatively
insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually
no certification requirements.
  #4  
Old September 10th 10, 03:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 815
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

On Sep 9, 8:51*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. *And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.


For me personally after looking at the economy, I'd
rather keep that much money in a safe place right
now drawing a humble rate of interest than to spend
it on a plane worth 35K that costs 120K.


---
Mark


When airplanes become mass produced in millions per year by robots,
the price won't be much more than cars.


So why, relatively speaking, were planes so much cheaper
back in the 1970's? I don't think it was supply and demand
but I could be wrong.

Of course, airplanes are never going to be mass produced in millions per
year by robots.


Maybe not but with globalization of the world economy I
wouldn't be suprised to see China step up to the plate and
fill this niche. From a stand-point of profitablility I'm sure
Cessna, Piper, and Beechcraft among others have found a
nice balance of optimum profit by producing just enough
inventory to keep the prices where they want them without
having to tool up and mass produce. Labor would be their
largest overhead and human resource management is
always volatile.

Back to the Chinese... this short video gives a nice little
tutorial on the state of electric airplanes and China's
contribution. Just think, no oxygen required.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0

In term of cost, the best time to buy stuff is when the economy is

down
and people are dealing.


No doubt and people are selling everything these days,
especially in Florida where houses are 1/2 (or less)
their former price. Most anywhere you can find a boat,
travel trailor, or motorcycle for bargain prices and people
are selling 120K airplanes for 80K. Problem is, after a
year or so most of those toys just end up sitting in the
garage and the 80K plane is STILL overpriced.

--
Mark


--
Jim Pennino

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  #5  
Old September 10th 10, 03:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 815
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

On Sep 10, 2:09*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. *And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.


A shrinking market,


Why do you think the market is shrinking? I think it's
growing.

ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation


With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that
would drive up the price of planes, and really do you
suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents?

and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes.


How so? Yes certification is expensive but that money
goes to the flight school.

These factors are absent or nearly
absent for automobiles,


Wait a second. I would dare say that MANY lawsuits
stem from car related incidents and FEW lawsuits are
incurred (proportionally speaking) with private pilots in
single engine planes.

which have a huge, expanding market, relatively
insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually
no certification requirements.


---
Mark

  #6  
Old September 10th 10, 05:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,892
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

Mark wrote:
On Sep 9, 8:51Â*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. Â*And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.


For me personally after looking at the economy, I'd
rather keep that much money in a safe place right
now drawing a humble rate of interest than to spend
it on a plane worth 35K that costs 120K.


---
Mark


When airplanes become mass produced in millions per year by robots,
the price won't be much more than cars.


So why, relatively speaking, were planes so much cheaper
back in the 1970's? I don't think it was supply and demand
but I could be wrong.


They weren't.

A decent, used, lower end airplane both then and now costs about the same
as a high end car.

Oh, sure, in absolute dollars they were a lot cheaper then, but so was
everything else.

Of course, airplanes are never going to be mass produced in millions per
year by robots.


Maybe not but with globalization of the world economy I
wouldn't be suprised to see China step up to the plate and
fill this niche.


What niche?

The equipment to do robotic building costs big bucks that can only be
payed for by huge volumes.

Even if the price for a new Cessna/Cirrus/Piper were the same as a new car,
the percentage of people owning airplanes would not change very much simply
because most people are not interested in owning an airplane.

The bottom line is there is no huge market for airplanes at any price which
means the building of them will never be automatted like cars are.

From a stand-point of profitablility I'm sure
Cessna, Piper, and Beechcraft among others have found a
nice balance of optimum profit by producing just enough
inventory to keep the prices where they want them without
having to tool up and mass produce. Labor would be their
largest overhead and human resource management is
always volatile.


Utter nonsense.

All the airplane makers have been struggling just to survive for a decade
or so now.

Back to the Chinese... this short video gives a nice little
tutorial on the state of electric airplanes and China's
contribution. Just think, no oxygen required.


Electric airplanes are toys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0

In term of cost, the best time to buy stuff is when the economy is

down
and people are dealing.


No doubt and people are selling everything these days,
especially in Florida where houses are 1/2 (or less)
their former price. Most anywhere you can find a boat,
travel trailor, or motorcycle for bargain prices and people
are selling 120K airplanes for 80K. Problem is, after a
year or so most of those toys just end up sitting in the
garage and the 80K plane is STILL overpriced.


What are you, 15?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #7  
Old September 10th 10, 05:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,892
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:

Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.


A shrinking market, ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation, and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes. These factors are absent or nearly
absent for automobiles, which have a huge, expanding market, relatively
insignificant liability issues in relation to the market size, and virtually
no certification requirements.


Actually the automobile market has all those concerns, which is why you don't
see new, low volume cars like the Morgan in the USA. They can't afford to
meet all those requirements at their volume level. One Morgan executive
once commented that the US crash testing requirements alone whould require
most of a years production.

It is the huge volume of mass produced cars that spreads those costs over
so many units that the compliance cost per unit becomes trivial.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #8  
Old September 10th 10, 05:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,892
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 2:09Â*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. Â*And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.


A shrinking market,


Why do you think the market is shrinking? I think it's
growing.


Then your thinking is clouded.

The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking
in all sectors from GA to airliners.


ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation


With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that
would drive up the price of planes, and really do you
suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents?


The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big
money.

and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes.


How so? Yes certification is expensive but that money
goes to the flight school.


The airplane itself and each piece and part has to be certified. That costs
the manufacturer big bucks.

The certification testing of a new airplane design can take years.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.
  #9  
Old September 11th 10, 12:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 815
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

On Sep 10, 12:12*pm, wrote:

So why, relatively speaking, were planes so much cheaper
back in the 1970's? *I don't think it was supply and demand
but I could be wrong.


They weren't.


A decent, used, lower end airplane both then and now costs about the same
as a high end car.

Oh, sure, in absolute dollars they were a lot cheaper then, but so was
everything else.


My understanding is that the RATIO has not been maintained,
as I've already stated and RELATIVELY speaking planes cost
more today than in the 1970's.

Of course, airplanes are never going to be mass produced in millions per
year by robots.


Maybe not but with globalization of the world economy I
wouldn't be suprised to see China step up to the plate and
fill this niche.


What niche?


The sector of people who don't want to pay more than
50K.

The equipment to do robotic building costs big bucks that can only be
payed for by huge volumes.


Yes I am familiar with this, as I worked for Lockheed during
the 70's and 80's.

Even if the price for a new Cessna/Cirrus/Piper were the same as a new car,
the percentage of people owning airplanes would not change very much simply
because most people are not interested in owning an airplane.


I'm sure that there are MANY people who would own an
airplane today if they could get one for $24,900.

The bottom line is there is no huge market for airplanes at any price which
means the building of them will never be automatted like cars are.


While I wouldn't expect a company to try and crank out planes
as if they were toyotas, I think the cheap international labor
market could make available a reasonably priced new craft
for the geneneral aviation market.

* From a stand-point of profitablility I'm sure

Cessna, Piper, and Beechcraft among others have found a
nice balance of optimum profit by producing just enough
inventory to keep the prices where they want them without
having to tool up and mass produce. Labor would be their
largest overhead and human resource management is
always volatile.


Utter nonsense.


Wrong. Generally speaking your highest on-going overhead
is labor. With any successful business, at some time the
idea of expansion is entertained, and while your actual sales
very well may increase (the reason for examining expansion)
very likely your profits may decrease.

All the airplane makers have been struggling just to survive for a

decade
or so now.


Agreed, with many going bankrupt but it isn't due
to lack of demand. (you know...supply/demand)

Back to the Chinese... *this short video gives a nice little
tutorial on the state of electric airplanes and China's
contribution. Just think, no oxygen required.


Electric airplanes are toys.


Precisely what was said about the telephone..."Just a toy".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwyyQ1BckK0


In term of cost, the best time to buy stuff is when the economy is

down
and people are dealing.


No doubt and people are selling everything these days,
especially in Florida where houses are 1/2 (or less)
their former price. Most anywhere you can find a boat,
travel trailor, or motorcycle for bargain prices and people
are selling 120K airplanes for 80K. Problem is, after a
year or so most of those toys just end up sitting in the
garage and the 80K plane is STILL overpriced.


What are you, 15?


No need for insults. I'm 55, became financially
independent at age 40, and I didn't do it by throwing
away money on impulse spending.

Thanks, Mark



--
Jim Pennino

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  #10  
Old September 11th 10, 12:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 815
Default Airplane prices are ridiculous

On Sep 10, 12:23*pm, wrote:
Mark wrote:
On Sep 10, 2:09*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Mark writes:
Relatively speaking the price of an airplane today
is much higher than they were in the 1970's as
compared to the value of a dollar and average wages
back then. *And really, if you look at the price of
complex automobiles with all the bells and whistles
there really is no justification for planes to be priced
so high. There just isn't that much more technology
or material.


A shrinking market,


Why do you think the market is shrinking? *I think it's
growing.


Then your thinking is clouded.


The market has been shrinking for a couple of decades,
but I believe there is a resurgence of interest at this time.
Unfortunately the economy right now is killing growth.

The sales numbers are out there for anyone to see and the market is shrinking
in all sectors from GA to airliners.


Yes sales are off. Interest is still high.
Conclusion: The friggin' planes cost too much.

ever-increasing potential liability in a society obsessed
by frivolous litigation


With insurance I just can't see this being a factor that
would drive up the price of planes, and really do you
suppose that many pilots find themselves as defendents?


The liability is on the manufacturer and liability insurance costs big
money.


Ok, thanks for the clarification. Insurance companies are
robber-barons. Look at the spread sheets. ( A.I.G.) So,
basically, GREED is driving up the cost of planes.

and the high cost of certification probably all
contribute to the prices of airplanes.


How so? *Yes certification is expensive but that money
goes to the flight school.


The airplane itself and each piece and part has to be certified. That costs
the manufacturer big bucks.

The certification testing of a new airplane design can take years.


Reminiscent of the FDA.

--
Jim Pennino

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