Using XCOM and Flight Line radios in certificated gliders

Hi,

A customer has asked me whether or not it is legal to install and use a
non-FAA-approved radio such as the XCOM 760 or FlightLine FL-760 in a type
certificated glider. XCOM's statement on the subject is copied below. Some
aircraft mechanics and avionics shops seem OK with installing those radios
and other flat refuse to. I don't have anything similar from FlightLine.

Below is an excerpt from a note received from XCOM on this subject.

"Our aircraft radio is not TSO'd but it does have the necessary FAA and
FCC approvals for fitting into certified aircraft. In fact there are
hundreds in the USA fitted to aircraft in either the standard or the primary
category." He copied me on the FAA and FCC certificates - which are on my
web site he
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xcom.htm.

The customer has an A&P that is very hesitant to approve the use of those
radios - unless someone can show paperwork showing that they were received
approval to do so - such as a 337 that was submitted and approved.

I should know more about this, but I have received so many differing
opinions, that I don't know what to believe.

I imagine I'll get a million different opinions on this subject, and I
welcome them. But opinions are not what the customer needs. He needs
specific examples and paperwork - if possible.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi,

A customer has asked me whether or not it is legal to install and use
a non-FAA-approved radio such as the XCOM 760 or FlightLine FL-760 in
a type certificated glider. XCOM's statement on the subject is copied
below. Some aircraft mechanics and avionics shops seem OK with
installing those radios and other flat refuse to. I don't have
anything similar from FlightLine.

Below is an excerpt from a note received from XCOM on this subject.

"Our aircraft radio is not TSO'd but it does have the necessary FAA
and FCC approvals for fitting into certified aircraft. In fact there
are hundreds in the USA fitted to aircraft in either the standard or
the primary category." He copied me on the FAA and FCC certificates -
which are on my web site he
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xcom.htm.

The customer has an A&P that is very hesitant to approve the use of
those radios - unless someone can show paperwork showing that they
were received approval to do so - such as a 337 that was submitted and
approved.

I should know more about this, but I have received so many differing
opinions, that I don't know what to believe.

I imagine I'll get a million different opinions on this subject, and I
welcome them. But opinions are not what the customer needs. He needs
specific examples and paperwork - if possible.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.


The obvious answer is to find a non-pain in the ass A&P. If they are
having this problem what else is going to be an issue with this guy?

We have enough problems in the field with poor radio installs. Lets
focus on what ought to be focused on. Often battery problems, speaker
and microphone and antenna issues. Those issues are not caused by lack
of TSO paperwork on the radio. I wonder if he realizes the radio is
likely to connect to a non-TSO antenna, mic and battery.

Darryl

On 8/19/11 11:15 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I wonder if he realizes the radio is
likely to connect to a non-TSO antenna, mic and battery.

Heh, my Standard Airworthiness ASH-26E engine uses mostly stuff from the
auto parts and hardware stores. This per the maintenance manual, so
perhaps that makes them TSO....

-Tom

From an old RAS posting by Rod Farlee:

------ Begin Quoting --------------------

TSO stands for Technical Standard Order.

The FCC specifies operational requirements for most avionics. FAA TSO
specs are environmental (temperature, humidity, vibration, shock), and
in some cases, such as IFR GPS, are operational. A TSO has nothing to
do with the manufacturing process (this is the concern of the FAA PMA,
parts manufacturing approval, process).

Try to buy a TSO'd DME, VFR GPS, GPS/COM or intercom and you'll find
there are no TSOs for these items. Also there is no requirement for
TSOs for anything used for FAR Part 91 operations except the
transponder and ELT. (altimeter, too, if you have transponder)

To install non-TSO'd equipment there is no requirement for an STC. A
377 "Major Alteration" form is needed only if the installation
requires structural modifications to the airplane or fabrication of a
mounting tray. Otherwise, it requires only a logbook entry by a radio
shop or A&P with avionics inspection authorization that the physical
installation conforms to AC 43 standard practices, and noting any
change in aircraft weight and balance.

There are some requirements for TSO'd equipment on airliners in FAR
121, but there are many exceptions (DME, entertainment, etc).

There is enough confusion among FAA FSDO inspectors over the new PMA
requirements that some of them seem to be making up there own rules in
this area, but let's not make up our own!
- Rod Farlee

------ End Quoting--------------------

Hope that this is helpful, Paul.

-John

=============

On Aug 19, 1:22 pm, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi,

A customer has asked me whether or not it is legal to install and use a
non-FAA-approved radio such as the XCOM 760 or FlightLine FL-760 in a type
certificated glider. XCOM's statement on the subject is copied below. Some
aircraft mechanics and avionics shops seem OK with installing those radios
and other flat refuse to. I don't have anything similar from FlightLine.

Below is an excerpt from a note received from XCOM on this subject.

"Our aircraft radio is not TSO'd but it does have the necessary FAA and
FCC approvals for fitting into certified aircraft. In fact there are
hundreds in the USA fitted to aircraft in either the standard or the primary
category." He copied me on the FAA and FCC certificates - which are on my
web site hehttp://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xcom.htm.

The customer has an A&P that is very hesitant to approve the use of those
radios - unless someone can show paperwork showing that they were received
approval to do so - such as a 337 that was submitted and approved.

I should know more about this, but I have received so many differing
opinions, that I don't know what to believe.

I imagine I'll get a million different opinions on this subject, and I
welcome them. But opinions are not what the customer needs. He needs
specific examples and paperwork - if possible.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

Tom Serkowski wrote:
On 8/19/11 11:15 AM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I wonder if he realizes the radio is
likely to connect to a non-TSO antenna, mic and battery.

Heh, my Standard Airworthiness ASH-26E engine uses mostly stuff from
the auto parts and hardware stores. This per the maintenance manual,
so perhaps that makes them TSO....

-Tom


But only the finest European motorcycle, automobile, and chainsaw (!)
suppliers. And blessed by German engineers who drink only the purest
beer.

I do get worried by done of this. If an A&P really just does not have
their head screwed on properly to be dealing with this I really worry
wether they ought to be working on sailplanes. They may well do but it
just raises some alarm bells about how much they know/work on gliders.
OTOH maybe it's somebody in a FSDO being silly wanting 337 paperwork for
something most FSDOs would wonder why an A&P is bothering them with
paperwork for.

Sigh.

Darryl

Heh, my Standard Airworthiness ASH-26E engine uses mostly stuff from
the auto parts and hardware stores. This per the maintenance manual,
so perhaps that makes them TSO....

-Tom


But only the finest European motorcycle, automobile, and chainsaw (!)
suppliers. And blessed by German engineers who drink only the purest
beer.

Yeah, OK, you're referring to the Reinheitsgebot sometimes called the
"German Beer Purity Law". Around here we have the swineheitsgebot - we
don't drink anything a pig wouldn't. :-)

Tony "6N"

to make it as quite simple ..........Radios (transceivers) have to have FCC
approval.....TSO is not a requirement for transceiver or for that matter
most other equipment unless called out in the TCDS, or requirements under a
specific Part of the FAR's for that 'required" operation typical usually to
aircraft operated under Part 135, 121 and then when specifically called out
for intended operation.
If TSO were a requirement for all equipment in all aircraft then I think
we'd be in for a big change when confronted with the opeation of all
electric variometers, flight computers, PDA's Oudies, ClearNav's to name a
few, even right down to simple electronic variometers, none of which have
even been TSO'd or for that matter received even the most basic FAA approval
of any issued and then installed......they, like radios for most glider
operations are "optional" and non-required equipment for "most"
operations...that being operated outside airspace where they are not
required for operation of the aircraft
Tim mara
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
...
Hi,

A customer has asked me whether or not it is legal to install and use a
non-FAA-approved radio such as the XCOM 760 or FlightLine FL-760 in a type
certificated glider. XCOM's statement on the subject is copied below.
Some aircraft mechanics and avionics shops seem OK with installing those
radios and other flat refuse to. I don't have anything similar from
FlightLine.

Below is an excerpt from a note received from XCOM on this subject.

"Our aircraft radio is not TSO'd but it does have the necessary FAA and
FCC approvals for fitting into certified aircraft. In fact there are
hundreds in the USA fitted to aircraft in either the standard or the
primary category." He copied me on the FAA and FCC certificates - which
are on my web site he
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/xcom.htm.

The customer has an A&P that is very hesitant to approve the use of those
radios - unless someone can show paperwork showing that they were received
approval to do so - such as a 337 that was submitted and approved.

I should know more about this, but I have received so many differing
opinions, that I don't know what to believe.

I imagine I'll get a million different opinions on this subject, and I
welcome them. But opinions are not what the customer needs. He needs
specific examples and paperwork - if possible.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

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On Friday, August 19, 2011 4:58:18 PM UTC-4, Tony V wrote:

Yeah, OK, you're referring to the Reinheitsgebot sometimes called the
"German Beer Purity Law". Around here we have the swineheitsgebot - we
don't drink anything a pig wouldn't. :-)

Tony "6N"

Okay, now THAT'S funny. With your permission, I will post a copy of the Swineheitsgebot on the deck at Blairstown, where a 30 pack of Busch in cans is standard issue.

P3

On 8/20/2011 7:39 AM, Papa3 wrote:
On Friday, August 19, 2011 4:58:18 PM UTC-4, Tony V wrote:

Yeah, OK, you're referring to the Reinheitsgebot sometimes called the
"German Beer Purity Law". Around here we have the swineheitsgebot - we
don't drink anything a pig wouldn't. :-)

Tony "6N"

Okay, now THAT'S funny. With your permission, I will post a copy of the Swineheitsgebot on the deck at Blairstown, where a 30 pack of Busch in cans is standard issue.

P3



LOL! Go for it.

Tony
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

For me, it's either a good micro brew or a home brew.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/RIMS

Okay, I know this has gone way off topic, but...

One of the guys showed up at the field today with nothing less than Pork Slap Ale. Perhaps the new official brew of the Deck at Blairstown...

http://www.butternutsbeerandale.com/