ENvironmentally Friendly Inter City Aircraft powered by Fuel Cells

Jim Logajan wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:
Bob Fry wrote:
No, you can't. There are legal restrictions on some titles of
engineering. Nevertheless, one certainly need not be registered to
call themselves an engineer. What's almost always recognized is a
4-year degree or better in engineering from an acredited engineering
program.
In the US you can in most states anyway. There may be a state or two
where this isn't true, but I'm not aware of any.

North Carolina is one:
"Illegal use of engineer title raises ire of profession"
http://triad.bizjournals.com/triad/s...12/focus3.html

Did you actually read this article? On page 2 it supports what I said,
not what you claim.

"Ritter says engineers must only be licensed by the state if they are
offering their services directly to the public and not just to their
employer.

For example, an engineer designing roads would have to be licensed, but
someone with engineering training working for Ford to design cars to
drive those roads would not need to be licensed."



Tennessee is another (well, it is even worse in that it is argued that
is is illegal to arbitrarily title oneself a "Software Engineer" in all
50 states!):

"Software Engineering is Illegal" (First part)
"YOU ARE A SOFTWARE ENGINEER!!!" (Second part; rebuttal)
http://staff.science.uva.nl/~boasson/SE/SEillegal.pdf

This next article costs money (which I haven't shelled out!) but the
title and the context Google provided suggests it is relevant:

"What Do You Mean I Can't Call Myself a Software Engineer?"

http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/D...1109/52.805472

Again, these involve offering services to the public, not simply having
a title within a company that includes engineer. I did though in my
searching find one state that apparently doesn't have an industrial
exemption, but the other 49 do last I knew. So, I'll say it again,
unless you are offering services to the public (or live in Mississippi),
there is no problem having engineer in your title.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/engineering/pe-eit-exam/


Matt (an engineer by training, by trade, and by license in two states)

Matt Whiting wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
North Carolina is one:
"Illegal use of engineer title raises ire of profession"
http://triad.bizjournals.com/triad/s...12/focus3.html

Did you actually read this article? On page 2 it supports what I
said, not what you claim.

Hey - I doth protest! I kinda read it! Proper context sir:

"In other words, if the word engineer appears in your job title, business
card or stationary, the public can assume you have met the qualifications
to be a licensed engineer. So if non-engineers use the title, they
publicly claim to be something they're not and are offering services
they're not licensed to offer."

"Ritter says engineers must only be licensed by the state if they are
offering their services directly to the public and not just to their
employer.

For example, an engineer designing roads would have to be licensed,
but someone with engineering training working for Ford to design cars
to drive those roads would not need to be licensed."

"But, Ritter says, if the "engineer" working for Ford begins telling
people he's an engineer, he may be crossing the line.
"If he hands you his business card and it says engineer on it, he is
putting himself out in public as an engineer," he says.

I presumed from _the entire context_ that the article was suggesting that
simply making the job title "Software Engineer" public is sufficient to
be in violation of the law. Programmers exist by the ton[1] who have
"Software Engineer" on the business cards their employers give them and I
can assure you that those cards are handed out on a regular basis to
prospects, customers, vendors, friends, and family. And when they write
their resumes they will almost certainly claim the title.

I will concede, though, that you are absolutely correct that simply
having an internal company title with the term "engineer" in it is
perfectly legal. But that, I submit, is the exceptional case.

Matt (an engineer by training, by trade, and by license in two states)

Just curious, but what kind of engineering?

[1] It's a sedentary career so it doesn't take many programmers to add up
to a ton. ;-)

... and what makes those doctors crackpot? The fact that they
prescribe marijuana?

Pretty much, yes. Most doctors don't go around making up their own
prescriptions.

Well, that's a pretty circular reasoning. You can argue any point that
way. And, as a matter of fact, doctors =do= go around making their own
prescriptions. Once a drug is approved for =anything=, it can be
prescribed for anything else.

Marijuana has been shown to be superior to commercial prescrptions for
the relief of nausea in terminal cancer patients. I don't see any
objection to such use, except perhaps by the supersticious and meddlesome.

If they have enough of a questioning mind to become a useful scientist then
they should have enough of one to get all the info that is out there and
decide things for themselves.

Alas, religion provides plenty to occupy an enquiring mind. One can
devote their entire life to interesting theological research. While it
is true that all the theological research in the world doens't make the
superstition true, it does occupy an otherwise bright mind.

People believe what they are fed as a child. Some rebel later, but not
out of reason.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Logajan wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
North Carolina is one:
"Illegal use of engineer title raises ire of profession"
http://triad.bizjournals.com/triad/s...12/focus3.html
Did you actually read this article? On page 2 it supports what I
said, not what you claim.

Hey - I doth protest! I kinda read it! Proper context sir:

"In other words, if the word engineer appears in your job title, business
card or stationary, the public can assume you have met the qualifications
to be a licensed engineer. So if non-engineers use the title, they
publicly claim to be something they're not and are offering services
they're not licensed to offer."

Ceratinly! The context is offering services to the public, just as I've
been saying! Notice "the public" can assumer.... If you are only
working for your industrial employer designing products, you are fine.


"Ritter says engineers must only be licensed by the state if they are
offering their services directly to the public and not just to their
employer.

For example, an engineer designing roads would have to be licensed,
but someone with engineering training working for Ford to design cars
to drive those roads would not need to be licensed."

"But, Ritter says, if the "engineer" working for Ford begins telling
people he's an engineer, he may be crossing the line.
"If he hands you his business card and it says engineer on it, he is
putting himself out in public as an engineer," he says.

I presumed from _the entire context_ that the article was suggesting that
simply making the job title "Software Engineer" public is sufficient to
be in violation of the law. Programmers exist by the ton[1] who have
"Software Engineer" on the business cards their employers give them and I
can assure you that those cards are handed out on a regular basis to
prospects, customers, vendors, friends, and family. And when they write
their resumes they will almost certainly claim the title.

I will concede, though, that you are absolutely correct that simply
having an internal company title with the term "engineer" in it is
perfectly legal. But that, I submit, is the exceptional case.

I've heard some urban legens along the lines of the Ford example given
above, but I've heard more court cases that through out such claims.
Unless the engineer gave his Ford business card to John Q. Public AND
also offered them engineering services, he is safe.


Matt (an engineer by training, by trade, and by license in two states)

Just curious, but what kind of engineering?

Initially software (BSCS degree), then later electrical (BSEE) and I'm
about to complete my structural engineering masters and plan to do some
consulting in this field as I enter retirement in a few years. My
original PE in NY state was taken in electrical, but for my recently
acquired PA license I listed both electrical and structural as areas of
practice.

I'll admit that after getting my EE degree, after 5 years of work
experience, I have to concur with the folks who claim that software
engineering really doesn't exist. I've seen nothing in industry that
even approaches the way both electrical and structural engineers
operate. I've heard of a few aerospace companies that use, or at least
claim to use, formal proofs for software, etc., and that is probably
approaching the way a true engineering discipline operates, but I've yet
to really see this in action. All of the software I wrote and was
involved with wasn't at all based on any scientific laws or principles
and really was closer to art (writing a novel), than it was to science.


Matt

Then, they sold people on "SUVs" that may be the least practical
vehicles in urban environments. Today, they're left with an inventory that
they can't give away, and Toyota et al are eating their lunch.

Neil- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Toyota has become an american corporation with overseas owners - in a
big part because labor in Japan is just too damned expensive picture
evil grin...
Over the past couple of years their quality is slipping JD Powers
based on buyer complaints - must be those lazy american workers - or
maybe it is because Toyota's management is being pressed to improve
the profit margin because the Japanese bank/market monolith is
teetering on the edge of a huge meltdown...

The american car companies do 'get it' for the most part... Their
curse is the legacy of having been big and the contracts they agreed
to in the past are now eating them... That is temporary and being
changed as fast as the laws will let them...

I have people I talk to daily who are GM employees / executives, and
those who are suppliers to GM... The suppliers are frantically moving
production from the USA to Mexico as is GM itself... Delphi Chassis
Saginaw is rapidly transferring its disc brake production south of the
border because congress continues to roll over for the UAW and refuses
to give the employer a fair shake...
IF you want to know who is to blame for jobs leaving the country just
look at the congress critter you voted in... The buck stops there as
the bucks continue to flee the country

denny - old GM guy who still bleeds bowties, but is glad he left

Matt Whiting wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote:
North Carolina is one:
"Illegal use of engineer title raises ire of profession"
http://triad.bizjournals.com/triad/s...12/focus3.html
Did you actually read this article? On page 2 it supports what I
said, not what you claim.

Hey - I doth protest! I kinda read it! Proper context sir:

"In other words, if the word engineer appears in your job title,
business card or stationary, the public can assume you have met the
qualifications to be a licensed engineer. So if non-engineers use the
title, they publicly claim to be something they're not and are
offering services they're not licensed to offer."

Ceratinly! The context is offering services to the public, just as I've
been saying! Notice "the public" can assumer.... If you are only
working for your industrial employer designing products, you are fine.


"Ritter says engineers must only be licensed by the state if they are
offering their services directly to the public and not just to their
employer.

For example, an engineer designing roads would have to be licensed,
but someone with engineering training working for Ford to design cars
to drive those roads would not need to be licensed."

"But, Ritter says, if the "engineer" working for Ford begins telling
people he's an engineer, he may be crossing the line.
"If he hands you his business card and it says engineer on it, he is
putting himself out in public as an engineer," he says.
I presumed from _the entire context_ that the article was suggesting
that simply making the job title "Software Engineer" public is
sufficient to be in violation of the law. Programmers exist by the
ton[1] who have "Software Engineer" on the business cards their
employers give them and I can assure you that those cards are handed
out on a regular basis to prospects, customers, vendors, friends, and
family. And when they write their resumes they will almost certainly
claim the title.

I will concede, though, that you are absolutely correct that simply
having an internal company title with the term "engineer" in it is
perfectly legal. But that, I submit, is the exceptional case.

I've heard some urban legens along the lines of the Ford example given
above, but I've heard more court cases that through out such claims.
Unless the engineer gave his Ford business card to John Q. Public AND
also offered them engineering services, he is safe.


Matt (an engineer by training, by trade, and by license in two states)

Just curious, but what kind of engineering?

Initially software (BSCS degree), then later electrical (BSEE) and I'm
about to complete my structural engineering masters and plan to do some
consulting in this field as I enter retirement in a few years. My
original PE in NY state was taken in electrical, but for my recently
acquired PA license I listed both electrical and structural as areas of
practice.

I'll admit that after getting my EE degree, after 5 years of work
experience, I have to concur with the folks who claim that software
engineering really doesn't exist. I've seen nothing in industry that
even approaches the way both electrical and structural engineers
operate. I've heard of a few aerospace companies that use, or at least
claim to use, formal proofs for software, etc., and that is probably
approaching the way a true engineering discipline operates, but I've yet
to really see this in action. All of the software I wrote and was
involved with wasn't at all based on any scientific laws or principles
and really was closer to art (writing a novel), than it was to science.


Matt
I have to disagree with your point of view that Software Engineering is
not engineering . I have both a BSCS and a MSCS and have worked at
both Fortune 5 companies and well as much smaller organizations. While,
just like in other engineering fields, it's possible not to follow a
rigorous development process, I have seen and worked within a process
that had all the hallmarks of a engineering process in other fields.
That you have not seen it does not mean it does not exist.

As part of this thread I started looking in to the licensing of
Engineers and looking at the national standards I saw that there is no
licensing of the software engineering field. The closest I could find
was Electrical and Computer Systems but that was 70 directed to the
electrical aspects of designing the hardware with a small ( 30%) amount
devoted to software itself. It would seem that NCEES thinks software
is important enough to test for but not to license as a separate
category. Perhaps this will change but given that this board equates
surveying with engineering make me question just how relevant they are.


John

Recently, Denny posted:

Then, they sold people on "SUVs" that may be the least practical
vehicles in urban environments. Today, they're left with an
inventory that they can't give away, and Toyota et al are eating
their lunch.


[...]
The american car companies do 'get it' for the most part... Their
curse is the legacy of having been big and the contracts they agreed
to in the past are now eating them... That is temporary and being
changed as fast as the laws will let them...

If the US car companies "got it", why are they perpetuating the production
of vehicles that people won't buy? The only thing that seems to have put a
crimp into that practice is that they don't have any more room to store
the inventory. What's stopping the US manufacturers from making the kind
of fuel-efficient, reliable autos that one can buy from any number of
off-shore manufacturers? As I see it, THAT is the major problem that the
US auto industry faces.

Neil

John Theune wrote:

As part of this thread I started looking in to the licensing of
Engineers and looking at the national standards I saw that there is no
licensing of the software engineering field. The closest I could find
was Electrical and Computer Systems but that was 70 directed to the
electrical aspects of designing the hardware with a small ( 30%) amount
devoted to software itself. It would seem that NCEES thinks software
is important enough to test for but not to license as a separate
category. Perhaps this will change but given that this board equates
surveying with engineering make me question just how relevant they are.


Well, when you consider that virtually everything we use today
involves software it is a dsicipline in its own right. It is a
vitally important component of any engineering process from design
and development, modeling, simulation, manufacturing, process control
(a pilot could not fly an F117 without the software systems), testing
and on and on.

I've designed and developed both analog and digital hardware and
written the software to support it. I started out in hardware
and eventually over the years gravitated into software development
because (at least where I have worked) good software engineers
were always in high demand. Understanding the CPU architecture
is important to designing an efficient solution to any problem.

The same engineering principles apply whether you are designing
a software system or a hardware system and the best designs
involve a proper division of both disciplines, because most
most software is controlling or sensing some sort of hardware,
or interfacing with humans or other systems. Software is
very diverse and can be extremely low level (micro-coded devices),
mid level (operating systems and device drivers) and high level
(applications).

Software engineering in terms of design and developing systems
is engineering (whether anyone likes it or not). Writing a few
macros for a spreadsheet is not engineering.... but that isn't
what were were talking about.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Matt Barrow" wrote:

"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Jim Logajan wrote:
kontiki wrote:

Really good engineers can pretty much name their own salary.
I've interviewed dozens that put a lot of buzz words on a resume and
really didn't know squat.


What engineering discipline are you trained and licensed in?

Software... systems architecture and database design, real time.

I've never been required to be "licensed".

AIR, to call yourself an "Engineer" in some states, you must be licensed.

My official job title is "Principal Engineer".

Inside-the-company job titles don't count.

I don't hold a PE license.
Apparently people with my same job in my company who work in Canada have a
different title, because Canadian laws do not allow a job title to include
the word "engineer" unless they are licensed.

To sell a service in which you call yourself an "engineer" is what I was
refering to.

I have held state certificates as a Mechanical Engineer, and as a Civil
Engineer, but neither does me much good anymore (and haven't for a long
time).


--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY
My email signature at work just says, "Software Guy", however.

"John Theune" wrote in message
news:elcai.10505$fX4.6903@trndny03...
I have to disagree with your point of view that Software Engineering is
not engineering . I have both a BSCS and a MSCS and have worked at both
Fortune 5 companies and well as much smaller organizations. While, just
like in other engineering fields, it's possible not to follow a rigorous
development process, I have seen and worked within a process that had all
the hallmarks of a engineering process in other fields. That you have not
seen it does not mean it does not exist.

As part of this thread I started looking in to the licensing of Engineers
and looking at the national standards I saw that there is no licensing of
the software engineering field. The closest I could find was Electrical
and Computer Systems but that was 70 directed to the electrical aspects of
designing the hardware with a small ( 30%) amount devoted to software
itself. It would seem that NCEES thinks software is important enough to
test for but not to license as a separate category. Perhaps this will
change but given that this board equates surveying with engineering make
me question just how relevant they are.


Many years ago, a guy I worked with, who was a software geek, had a cartoon
on the wall of his cubicle that showed a fellow walking out of a bay (of
cubes) and saying over his shoulder, "I'll go upstairs and see what they
want; the rest of you start coding!".

I've seen certified engineers work in much the same fashion, particularly on
state and federal pork-barrel projects.


--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Cheyenne, WY