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#21
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Y'All,
Here are some thoughts that I have not yet posted to my web site. Would appreciate any additions. Gene Whitt Flying in Circles IFR ---Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced visibility ---Circling requires that you have the runway in sight at all times ---You cannot leave the circling MDA unless able to descend to the runway ---You must choose the circle before descending below its MDA ---Circling at night, in low visibility and exposed to disorientation is a lost poker hand ---The notes restricting just where circling is allowed is usually a clue ---Don't ask for a circling approach where ceilings are not well above circling minimums ---By keeping your distance from the airport until turning final you avoid 'killer' bank angles ---Being IFR in VFR conditions at an airport does NOT give you any special 'rights' ---Go missed if you lose visual of the runway |
#22
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Gene Whitt wrote:
Y'All, Here are some thoughts that I have not yet posted to my web site. Would appreciate any additions. I'd add a note that although it is often recommended that one not descend below MDA until you are aligned on the final, there are some circling approaches where following this policy will cause you to miss, since at the minimum permissible visibility, you will be too high to descend to the runway. Gene Whitt Flying in Circles IFR ---Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced visibility ---Circling requires that you have the runway in sight at all times ---You cannot leave the circling MDA unless able to descend to the runway ---You must choose the circle before descending below its MDA "the" - "to" ? You must choose to circle... ? ---Circling at night, in low visibility and exposed to disorientation is a lost poker hand ---The notes restricting just where circling is allowed is usually a clue ---Don't ask for a circling approach where ceilings are not well above circling minimums ---By keeping your distance from the airport until turning final you avoid 'killer' bank angles ---Being IFR in VFR conditions at an airport does NOT give you any special 'rights' ---Go missed if you lose visual of the runway |
#23
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Gene,
Although I agree that circling approaches at minimums are arguably one of the most dangerous things a GA IFR pilot can do, I feel that with proper training, briefing and precautions, they can be safely accomplished. It gets into the area of trying to teach judgement. --ron On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:08:09 GMT, "Gene Whitt" wrote: Y'All, Here are some thoughts that I have not yet posted to my web site. Would appreciate any additions. Gene Whitt Flying in Circles IFR ---Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced visibility Circling approaches are an option to be approached with extreme caution in times of reduced visibility ---Circling requires that you have the runway in sight at all times ---You cannot leave the circling MDA unless able to descend to the runway USING NORMAL MANEUVERS AND AT A NORMAL RATE OF SPEED ---You must choose the circle before descending below its MDA ---Circling at night, in low visibility and exposed to disorientation is a POTENTIALLY LOSING POKER HAND ---The notes restricting just where circling is allowed is usually a clue ---Don't ask for a circling approach where ceilings are not well above circling minimums UNLESS YOU ARE CONFIDENT OF YOUR ABILITIES; AND CURRENT WITH THE PROCEDURE. ---By keeping your distance from the airport until turning final you avoid 'killer' bank angles ---Being IFR in VFR conditions at an airport does NOT give you any special 'rights' Add emphasis to this one (above) ---Go missed if you lose visual of the runway AT ANY TIME, EVEN IF JUST BRIEFLY. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#24
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:08:09 GMT, "Gene Whitt"
wrote: Y'All, Here are some thoughts that I have not yet posted to my web site. Would appreciate any additions. Gene Whitt Oh, and I'd add: If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT be able to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a requirement to operate below the MDA). Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#25
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Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT be able to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a requirement to operate below the MDA). I'm sure Gene understands what you are saying, but for my benefit, could you elaborate a little on this statement? Why is this true? Thanks. Dave |
#26
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Dave Butler wrote in news:1116264343.869268@sj-nntpcache-5:
Ron Rosenfeld wrote: If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT be able to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a requirement to operate below the MDA). I'm sure Gene understands what you are saying, but for my benefit, could you elaborate a little on this statement? Why is this true? Cloud bases are seldom perfectly level. They are lower in some places than in others. If you get the airport in sight right at MDA, then it's likely that there will be areas where the cloud bases will be below MDA, and you'll probably fly through them as you circle. -- Regards, Stan "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin |
#27
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Stan Gosnell wrote:
Dave Butler wrote in news:1116264343.869268@sj-nntpcache-5: Ron Rosenfeld wrote: If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT be able to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a requirement to operate below the MDA). I'm sure Gene understands what you are saying, but for my benefit, could you elaborate a little on this statement? Why is this true? Cloud bases are seldom perfectly level. They are lower in some places than in others. If you get the airport in sight right at MDA, then it's likely that there will be areas where the cloud bases will be below MDA, and you'll probably fly through them as you circle. OK, sure, thanks, but if Ron meant that, wouldn't he have said "...you're likely to have to go missed... " instead of all that stuff about normal maneuvers? I'd still like to hear Ron's answer. Dave |
#28
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Stan Gosnell wrote:
Cloud bases are seldom perfectly level. They are lower in some places than in others. If you get the airport in sight right at MDA, then it's likely that there will be areas where the cloud bases will be below MDA, and you'll probably fly through them as you circle. Clouds can do some weird **** (especially near bodies of water). I once flew into UUU (Newport, RI) for a practice approach. The plan was a low approach and go missed. The airport is near the coastline, and the approach is from over land towards the water. Inbound to the airport, I was in decent visibility and little bits of scattered scud here and there. What I didn't realize was that there was a low overcast layer on the water side, that ended just about at the airport. I reached the MAP, had a perfect view of the runway, started my climb, and almost immediately found myself in solid IMC. Had I been doing a circling approach, I could have easily found myself suddenly in cloud while circling below the MDA. |
#29
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 13:28:42 -0400, Dave Butler wrote:
Ron Rosenfeld wrote: If you don't have the runway in sight prior to the MDA, you may NOT be able to make a successful landing using normal maneuvers (a requirement to operate below the MDA). I'm sure Gene understands what you are saying, but for my benefit, could you elaborate a little on this statement? Why is this true? Thanks. Dave I miswrote a bit. In addition to what others have written, what I really meant to write was that "if you don't have the airport in sight prior to the MAP (missed approach point) ..." And the reason for that has to do with geometry. The MAP may be too close and to allow for normal maneuvers to land. (And using normal maneuvers is a requirement of 91.175) Sorry about the confusion. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#30
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On Mon, 16 May 2005 15:08:09 GMT, Gene Whitt wrote:
Hi Gene, First and foremost, thanks for hosting your awesome website! Some of my comments in my "newbie" sense of the IFR world. ---Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced visibility This would be tough to avoid at an airport like mine. Maybe rephrase: IF POSSIBLE Circling approaches are an option to be avoided in times of reduced visibility. Precision approaches should be the preferred choice if available. ---You must choose the circle before descending below its MDA Can you clear this statement up? I am not sure I understand it. ---Circling at night, in low visibility and exposed to disorientation is a lost poker hand I would rephrase the last part ....a potentially loosing poker hand. ---By keeping your distance from the airport until turning final you avoid 'killer' bank angles You may want to add to this statement, keep in mind winds aloft direction may push you closer to the airport then you intend. Allen |
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