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#141
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A tower-induced go-round
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:05:04 GMT, wrote in : I was only following orders was decided to be a non-defense for the actions of those in command back in 1945. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...426456ad1724f2 Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf-lovers From: (Mike Godwin) Date: 18 Aug 91 21:50:29 GMT Local: Sun, Aug 18 1991 2:50 pm Subject: Nazis (was Card's Article on Homosexuality In article (J Eric Townsend) writes: Who was it that said: "Whenver somebody starts mentioning Nazis on USENET, you know the discussion has gone on too long."? (Or something to that effect.) I said it. Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies: As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. --Mike -- Mike Godwin, | "Someday, some way." | (617) 864-1550 | --Marshall Crenshaw EFF, Cambridge, MA | Yeah, I know. I hesitated to use that line just because of Godwin's Rule, but it seems so appropriate for the anal retentive types that insist that all they have to follow is the CFAR's and their actions are justifiable irregardless of the consequence of their acts because they are in command. I'm open to other analogies, how about: Just because the law allows you a cell phone doesn't mean it is OK to carry on a loud conversation in a restaurant/theater. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#142
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A tower-induced go-round
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#143
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A tower-induced go-round
Jose wrote:
No, it is an example of a local procedure where it is possible, and likely, to cause a conflict if some cowboy decides no one is going to tell him what to do and ignores it just because he has a legal right to do so. The reason the procedure is as it is is to minimize noise over the housing area to the North, the college to the West, and facilitate no-radio VFR traffic in and out avoiding the surrounding class D and class C airspaces. It has been in place for decades and no one, except maybe you, has any problem with. I haven't looked over the procedure in question, and the "problem I have" isn't with the procedure, it's with the =idea= that a few locals can dummy up a procedure that is in conflict with generally accepted flying procedures (like the AIM) and with FAA mandated procedures (like an ODP if it applies). Nonsense. Local procedures aren't a "dummy up" process by "a few locals", they are based on the known conditions of the airport in question and done by the airport management. Also, they are not in conflict with anything, as, as several have noted, they are not mandatory by any stretch of the imagination. Further, if you actually read the AIM, you see the patterns in 4-3-3 are recomnended, not mandatory. Not following the local procedure, while not illegal, is at the minimum discourteous, and at the worst, dangerous. If you have a problem with the concept, you need to grow up and learn to play nicely with others as this has been around since the beginning of aviation. That's not what I am advocating. It most certainly is. No it isn't. Is this the five minute argument, or did you want the full half hour? ...you also have to have the maturity to understand that not everything is covered by a black and white regulation and that your decisions and actions also require other inputs besides those regulations to avoid unintended consequences. I certainly understand that. It seems that you don't. Perhaps this is just an artifact of Usenet discussion, but your posts are also black and white - "the local yokels came up with this procedure because they don't like noise, and you claim it is unsafe to differ from it, no matter what the FAA says". Your repeated disparagement of the airport management, which in most cases has many decades of experience, is noted. Your inablility to understand that local procedures are formulated by the airport management and not a mob is noted. Your inabliity to realize such things have been around since the beginning of aviation and that the FAA has no objection to it is noted. the unintended consequence could well be a midair with an arriving student following the local procedure which has been drummed into him by his CFI. A local procedure that causes an unsafe condition (such as a midair with an aircraft on a standard procedure) should probably be reconsidered. There may be situations where nonstandard procedures are warranted. They should be publicized where pilots would look for them. That would be the AF/D. To make up a nonstandard procedure which is dangerous when mixed with standard procedures, and not promulgate it via NOTAM or AF/D is a problem. It's more than just "legal words". This is probably the only thing we can agree on. While you are required to obtain all relevant information to a flight before takeoff, a lot of local procedures are not in the AF/D which makes it difficult for everyone to find them. But, since common sense, and I do believe a regulation somewhere, requires you to observe the existing traffic and blend in with it at none-towered airports, there is not much of an excuse not to follow what everyone else is doing. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#144
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A tower-induced go-round
Further, if you actually read the AIM, you see the patterns in 4-3-3
are recomnended, not mandatory. .... as is the "local procedure" Not following the local procedure, while not illegal, is at the minimum discourteous, and at the worst, dangerous. Ditto AIM. If you have a problem with the concept, you need to grow up and learn to play nicely with others as this has been around since the beginning of aviation. I have no problem playing nicely with others. I have a problem with others telling me deciding for me what I should do, rather than letting me decide for myself how I want to play nicely with others. Or not. Jose -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#145
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A tower-induced go-round
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Jose" wrote in message t... I haven't looked over the procedure in question, and the "problem I have" isn't with the procedure, it's with the =idea= that a few locals can dummy up a procedure that is in conflict with generally accepted flying procedures (like the AIM) and with FAA mandated procedures (like an ODP if it applies). TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES SW-3 07074 UPLAND, CA CABLE TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 6, 300-1 or std. with a min. climb of 240' per NM to 1900. DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 6, climbing right turn. Rwy 24, climbing left turn. All aircraft climb direct PDZ VORTAC. Aircraft departing PDZ R-091 CW R-140 and R-231 CW R-280 climb on course. All others continue climb in PDZ holding pattern (E, right turns, 258? inbound) to cross PDZ VORTAC at or above: R-281 CW R-090, 6700; R-141 CW R-230, 4000. Yep, those are the IFR procedures. Which part of the local procedures being for VFR are you having trouble understanding? The 24 IFR departure is identical to the 24 VFR departure to the South except the IFR departure references a VORTAC while the VFR departure references a VFR landmark. The path in the area of the airport is the same in both cases. The 6 IFR departure does not conflict with any VFR procedure. The 6 IFR departure takes you immediately into class C airspace, while the 6 VFR departure takes you away from it. The 6 IFR departure would be illegal to do without a radio, and if you did it with a radio, while legal, it would **** of the class C tower which is expecting you to use the VFR procedure and call them when you get close to midfield if you intend to cross their airspace. The tower would direct you to follow a path that is roughly the same as the VFR departure path though perhaps inside their airspace while the VFR path keeps you out of it. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#146
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A tower-induced go-round
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 15:05:02 GMT, wrote in : irregardless Merriam-Webster: Main Entry:irregardless Pronunciation:*ir-i-*g*rd-l*s Function:adverb Etymologyrobably blend of irrespective and regardless Date:circa 1912 nonstandard : REGARDLESS usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that *there is no such word.* There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead. Language changes; adapt or die. Have you had a gay time lately? -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#147
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A tower-induced go-round
Jose wrote:
Further, if you actually read the AIM, you see the patterns in 4-3-3 are recomnended, not mandatory. ... as is the "local procedure" Not following the local procedure, while not illegal, is at the minimum discourteous, and at the worst, dangerous. Ditto AIM. If you have a problem with the concept, you need to grow up and learn to play nicely with others as this has been around since the beginning of aviation. I have no problem playing nicely with others. I have a problem with others telling me deciding for me what I should do, rather than letting me decide for myself how I want to play nicely with others. Or not. Doing what the rest of the world expects you to do if there is no overriding reason not to is the definition of playing nicely with others. Doing what you want just because it isn't illegal without any regard for how it effects others is the definition of arrogance. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#148
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A tower-induced go-round
Doing what the rest of the world expects you to do if there is no
overriding reason not to is the definition of playing nicely with others. Except that in this case "The rest of the world" is just you. Jose -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#149
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A tower-induced go-round
Jose wrote:
Doing what the rest of the world expects you to do if there is no overriding reason not to is the definition of playing nicely with others. Except that in this case "The rest of the world" is just you. In this case, "the rest of the world" is thousands of other pilots over several decades, and that is just at one, small, airport. If you expand that radius to 50 KM, you are now talking about tens of thousands of pilots and a cumulative time of centuries. It appears most people don't have a problem with the concept. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#150
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A tower-induced go-round
If you expand that radius to 50 KM, you are now talking about tens
of thousands of pilots and a cumulative time of centuries. Tens of thousands of pilots have subscribed to your local noise procedure? They also subscribe to the idea that everyone must follow it or unsafe conditions result? Jose -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
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