Another YouTube video

Bill Daniels wrote:
If I read modern demographics right, something like 30% never marry and
raise children. A few of those should make good candidates. It's very
important to keep in mind that we are talking about less than 1% of the
general population. In that light, generalizations always fail. We recruit
one-by-one. In our sport, mass marketing is an oxymoron.
Now there is the truth and challenge of it Bill.
Mass marketing to such a bunch of misanthropic mavericks is indeed a
contradictory process.

Half the attraction for me is the solitude and self reliance and challenges
involved in taking a single seat glass slipper (OK mine is a little woolly from
age) and doing incredible things. All alone, no excuses, nobody else to blame.
Incredibly selfish.

Conversely,the other half of the attraction for me is the shared experience and
social part of a club operation. Making it work requires a strong sense of
community with the bunch of reprobates at the club.

One problem here is the increasingly commercial mindset. People simultaneously
complain of the cost of things, and insist on paying for instant gratification
rather than investing time and effort to obtain the same result without the
cost. It is the difference in mindset between enjoying the journey, and the
"are we there yet?" approach. If you can get people to see the value of and
pleasure to be had in the "journey" part of the sport they will stay. Even if
the day is not flyable, a day spent tinkering with the toys with like minded
people is more fun for me than most alternatives. But if you have the mindset
that the only purpose of this is the time spent in the air you are going to feel
he return is inadequate. Interestingly this appears to be learned behaviour - we
take 14/15 year olds and give them responsibilities and value the contribution
they make, and they develop a sense of pride and achievement. They start getting
a reward from contributing - which is noticeably absent from most of the 20
somethings we attract to intro flights.

It is not just age related, although age and gender magnify the differences. Any
time you get such a high concentration of individualists as opposed to the bland
masses who can't see the point, there are going to be some challenges.

So - to (eventually ) get to the point. It is not about mass marketing, it is
about finding the reward for the individual when he/she presents at the field.




However, I do agree that there is a 'critical mass' for attracting women and
youth. I'm sure being the only one present is uncomfortable

Bill Daniels


"Dan G" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:20 pm, Papa3 wrote:
Anyone who spends any time on "marketing" will tell you that step 1 is
to carefully segment your market. Having done that, you then figure
out what appeals to each of your segments and market appropriately.
In our case, it's pretty clear that we can/should have many target
markets. What works for the under 25 set may not and probably will
not appeal to the 50 and over set.
You can "target" some products, but only if you can tailor the product
to the market. If you can't you start selling a perception, rather
than a reality, which leads to rapid turn-over in members (to keep the
discussion to gliding).

I'm 26, and I fly in a club that happens to have a lot of younger
members, and several women too, so have a good idea of what I'm
talking about, because I'm talking about my friends and myself. There
is a high turnover in the young members in the club - only a *very*
few young people will stick with gliding through their career
advancement and starting a family. Older members have no such
limitations, and typically stacks of cash they're having trouble
spending now their children have flown the nest.

The few young people who stick with gliding for any length of time
almost always receive a lot of money from their parents, one of whom
is usually already a glider pilot. There are not many people in that
category, so it's not worth "targetting" that "market".

(Rock climbing, which is "another extreme outdoor sport" and one that
has a "young" image, is something I used to to, and I reckon that cost
me about 10% of what gliding has for the same period of time. I've
managed to stick with gliding because our club is very cheap, but as a
result has poor facilities, and it's only through drive and
stubborness that I've managed to progress at all. Many of my peers
give up and leave.)

Marketing is almost a side-show; most clubs get plenty of trial flight
customers. Turning them into pilots who stay in the sport for years is
the challenge.

If gliding clubs are interested in expansion there are lots of things
they can do. If you want to know what, the GFA have literally written
the book:

http://www.gfa.org.au/development/guide.php

Download the draft guide from the third box on the right. (There's
also the SSA Growbook, of course, which has lots of good stuff in it
too.)

Clubs have two options: follow the advice of the GFA and SSA and grow,
ignore it and shrink. As the IGC president said earlier this year,
glider pilots will place all the obstacles in the world before
themselves before they'll actually do anything, so I don't expect to
see any clubs following that guide (someone prove me wrong).


Dan

On Aug 14, 6:15 am, Dan G wrote:
On Aug 13, 10:20 pm, Papa3 wrote:

Anyone who spends any time on "marketing" will tell you that step 1 is
to carefully segment your market. Having done that, you then figure
out what appeals to each of your segments and market appropriately.
In our case, it's pretty clear that we can/should have many target
markets. What works for the under 25 set may not and probably will
not appeal to the 50 and over set.

You can "target" some products, but only if you can tailor the product
to the market. If you can't you start selling a perception, rather
than a reality, which leads to rapid turn-over in members (to keep the
discussion to gliding).

I'm 26, and I fly in a club that happens to have a lot of younger
members, and several women too, so have a good idea of what I'm
talking about, because I'm talking about my friends and myself. There
is a high turnover in the young members in the club - only a *very*
few young people will stick with gliding through their career
advancement and starting a family. Older members have no such
limitations, and typically stacks of cash they're having trouble
spending now their children have flown the nest.

The few young people who stick with gliding for any length of time
almost always receive a lot of money from their parents, one of whom
is usually already a glider pilot. There are not many people in that
category, so it's not worth "targetting" that "market".


Dan


Someone already beat me to part of the punch, but...

I'm a good example of someone who doesn't fit the model you describe.
Took up gliding at age 18 in college, and I'm still at it 23 years
later after a "real job" and "real kids". Sadly, I'm still among the
youngest at any contest I go to. If you look around, there are
more than a few folks who came in young and stuck with it, but they
came from clubs or operations where there was some level of interest
in and support for youth. Harris Hill comes to mind as one example of
a place (in the US) that's produced many lifelong soaring pilots.

So, I don't agree that we shouldn't market to youth. As someone else
pointed out, it's also the case that many people who get their first
experience when they're young and carefree come back after the kids
are in high school or college.

As far as the product is concerned, I couldn't agree more that the
real issue is keeping people interested for the long haul. And, all
of the comments about making the sport more appealing on all levels
ring true. I was just focused on the marketing side for this
thread.

Cheers,
P3

At 14:54 14 August 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
snip

However, I do agree that there is a 'critical mass'
for attracting women and
youth. I'm sure being the only one present is uncomfortable

My own background includes doing science at school
(mostly male), working in a mainly male industry (IT),
and a lot of single-handed dinghy racing (also mostly
male) so it wasn't usually a problem for me but that
is probably unusual.

Of course once I'd got hooked (about 30 seconds after
1st launch - I got hooked on dinghy sailing just as
quickly, but 40 years ago!) I soon found that regardless
of age or gender we all had something in common - we
like gliding. But it's getting through to realising
that that matters.

On Aug 14, 3:07 pm, Sally W
wrote:
At 14:54 14 August 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:
snip



However, I do agree that there is a 'critical mass'
for attracting women and
youth. I'm sure being the only one present is uncomfortable

My own background includes doing science at school
(mostly male), working in a mainly male industry (IT),
and a lot of single-handed dinghy racing (also mostly
male) so it wasn't usually a problem for me but that
is probably unusual.

Of course once I'd got hooked (about 30 seconds after
1st launch - I got hooked on dinghy sailing just as
quickly, but 40 years ago!) I soon found that regardless
of age or gender we all had something in common - we
like gliding. But it's getting through to realising
that that matters.


We have watched some great soaring videos. Now what? The discussion
inspired me to begin the process of setting up a Web page to serve as
a collection point for the best soaring videos. Go to my web site and
see the ones I've imported.

www.soar.weebly.com

Please nominate videos you think I should add, and check back as the
site evolves.

As chair of the SSA Publicity Committee, I'm looking for good
promotional materials and people to use the materials. Consider
joining the Promote Soaring Team. For more information, check out the
Publicity Homepage. You can get there from the SSA page on the SSA
web site. Click on the "Publicity" tab.

One thing we did in our club. After drifting up and
down between 60 - 90 members, (mostly down for the
last 10 years and including just two women), we halved
the initiation fee and put on a campaign to attract
new members -- flyers sent to registered airplane pilots
in our area, and a couple of other things. We've had
an influx of 22 new members and 5 of them are young
women! I don't know how that happened because they
were not pilots. They are highschool age, college
age, and one young mother. Don't discount serendipity,
but don't count on it either!

At 21:36 14 August 2007, Vsoars wrote:
On Aug 14, 3:07 pm, Sally W
wrote:
At 14:54 14 August 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:




However, I do agree that there is a 'critical mass'
for attracting women and
youth. I'm sure being the only one present is uncomfortable

My own background includes doing science at school
(mostly male), working in a mainly male industry (IT),
and a lot of single-handed dinghy racing (also mostly
male) so it wasn't usually a problem for me but that
is probably unusual.

Of course once I'd got hooked (about 30 seconds after
1st launch - I got hooked on dinghy sailing just as
quickly, but 40 years ago!) I soon found that regardless
of age or gender we all had something in common -
we
like gliding. But it's getting through to realising
that that matters.


We have watched some great soaring videos. Now what?
The discussion
inspired me to begin the process of setting up a Web
page to serve as
a collection point for the best soaring videos. Go
to my web site and
see the ones I've imported.

www.soar.weebly.com

Please nominate videos you think I should add, and
check back as the
site evolves.

As chair of the SSA Publicity Committee, I'm looking
for good
promotional materials and people to use the materials.
Consider
joining the Promote Soaring Team. For more information,
check out the
Publicity Homepage. You can get there from the SSA
page on the SSA
web site. Click on the 'Publicity' tab.

YouTube and community generated content certainly has it's place, and
there is a lot of great material out there, but here is a hint on
production values for any "officially produced" media:

http://iwc-media.futurecom.ch/techni...pilots_big.wmv

While the storyline in this marketing flick is not anything special,
we would likely benefit from some material which is closer to these
production values.

Another example is the Van Nuys video. http://www.onesixright.com/

I don't know the background story for One Six Right, but if the
creators could mine the nostalgia and passion for old airports and
aircraft in such a way, I'm quite certain that they could tell a great
story for a broad audience about modern soaring, competition, raw
speed/grace/beauty, accessibility, and throw in a bit about the
classics for those types. If someone could follow-up with the
producers/directors/backers of OSR, there might already be a
passionate soaring pilot amongst them, or maybe they just need to be
"steered" towards their next project.

Neither of the above examples is perfect -- both are a bit too
nostalgic and cheesy for my tastes -- but again, the production values
of these two flicks are a good reference point for future work.

Regarding marketing via the web. See: http://www.londonglidingclub.co.uk/.
The designer pretty much hit the sweet spot as far as marketing
soaring to the public online. I believe that the designer is a pilot
and has posted on RAS previously. Perhaps the designer is available
to consult on other online PR efforts, or perhaps they can recommend
other sources if not.

Disclaimer: All these links have likely surfaced on RAS previously.
But hey, this very thread is probably a dupe.

P.S. Another example. The Grand Prix videos are going in the right
direction but are perhaps a bit too focused on "racing" and
competition to truly reach a wide audience.

I think we are all missing a point about why other sports attract kids
and soaring generally doesn't.

Think about things that kids get into (other than video games). Snow
boarding. Mountain biking. Sky Diving. Scuba diving. Para-
whatever. What do they have in common? The turnaround time from
beginner to the point of "pushing the edge" is short. There is little
regulation (or self regulated) in the sport to create stumbling
blocks. The sports are edgy and are immediately thrilling (and sound
thrilling to your friends). All the sports (and power flying also)
mentioned above can be done nearly any day of the week. It's all
about short attention spans, busy lives and needing immediate
gratification.

Now let's take the sport we know and love. This great video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aumO0ZHwAro is very, very appealing to
kids because it presents the exciting side of the sport and shows kids
doing it. Unfortunately, getting to the point of being able to do any
of these things requires years of practice and is generally frowned
upon or considered outright illegal by our regulators. Therefore
soaring is bound to disappoint the crowd that wants this kind of
immediate rush.

What to do about this inherent liability of soaring? There are some
smart people in the sport that may be able to help but some things we
just cannot fix. We can't fly every day. We can't get someone solo-
ing after a few flights. These things aren't fixable by the very
nature of the sport.

My club tries very hard to attract youngsters and keep them involved
but we loose them unless they are inherently drawn to what we do.
Some are, most aren't. CAP is great but the kids that go for CAP are
viewed by the "cool" kids like being a "uncool" Boy Scout (I think
otherwise). Too bad.

I think that our sport will survive. We just need to understand that
it will never be the big bang that the latest trendy thrill-fest is.

Thanks, John "67R" DeRosa

PS One small point - When I am talking about what soaring I use the
word "racing". I don't fly a glider, I fly a "racing sailplane". I
amaze people with tales of stay up (all of) three hours!! Its my way
of making the sport a "thrill-fest".

On Aug 20, 2:43 am, ContestID67 wrote:
I think we are all missing a point about why other sports attract kids
and soaring generally doesn't...

A good post, but I can't decide if I agree with you or not.
Absolutely, the things in those videos are not the reality of gliding
- useful for raising awareness perhaps, but if we sold gliding on
those we'd be misleading potential pilots.

On the other hand, gliding is a lot more immeadiate and rewarding than
you give it credit for - I think you're a little harsh on the
differences between gliding and other "extreme" sports. I learnt to
glide on the winch, and my first half-dozen or so winch launches were
the most exciting thing I've ever done, and I've done a fair few
things.

Even after those first few flights, I never found the early parts of
learning to fly anything other than a thrill - I still remember the
buzz when my instructor said "now you're going to fly the top part of
the launch" - whoa! Or my first attempt to fly the glider down the
approach - utterly crap, speed and reference point all over the shop,
but I so desperately wanted to do it again and again and finally get
the thing on the deck properly. I've sailed, rock climbed and mountain
biked and learning to fly easily equalled any of those.

It was later that the problems start, and why I wrote:

Marketing is almost a side-show; most clubs get plenty of trial flight
customers. Turning them into pilots who stay in the sport for years is
the challenge.

I became incredibly frustrated in my club as getting instruction
became harder and harder during the winter (I joined in the autumn).
Ask any pre-solo pilot who quits and they'll tell you that's why.
Being at the airfield is less fun than something else they could be
doing. I personally desperately wanted to become a soaring pilot and
wasn't going to let these problems stop me, but it shouldn't be that
hard. Post-solo has been equally difficult - everybody knows many solo
pilots soon jack it in as their progression stops.

What to do about that? It's not hard. Have a glider that can be booked
for instruction, so the trainee knows it's worth their while to go to
the field. Have an instructor incentive scheme that's actually
worthwhile - ask the instructors what they want, and give them it, so
you have enough to provide flight instruction. Encourage your field to
be run better - get it going at 9am in the morning, not 10.30. Make it
clear to everyone what time they should get there in the morning -
they'll moan, but soon find that it's worthwhile as everything starts
happening faster rather than waiting around for instructors, marshalls
and winch/tug drivers to turn up in their own sweet time. Get the
launch rate up through good training and support for people are doing
the ground-handling (i.e. not shouting at people when they make
mistakes, but actually helping them to do it better). Have a post-solo
development system.

The trouble is, it *is* hard. Clubs are mostly made up of people who
have been gliding for years and have a fixed view of "the way things
should be done". Getting them to change is nigh-on impossible. I have
no idea if it's even possible.

If a gliding club wants to grow, it needs to put these things in
order. "Marketing" is, if anything, a distraction away from the real
problems gliding faces.

But does any of this matter? Gliding worldwide is declining quickly.
German gliding is imploding and in the UK membership is at it's lowest
point for decades. Is this a problem? Hard to say. Most clubs are big
enough for it not to be a problem for a while yet. Having fewer people
in the sport will mean clubs are less congested and it will be easier
to get a launch when you want. There will be fewer people trying to
fly the club aircraft. As the number of pilots declines and there are
still a few sales of new sailplanes, second hand glider prices will
drop.

On the other hand, clubs may well shrink to the point where mid-week
launching is unviable due to lack of demand. Prices will have to rise
to make up for falling numbers. Smaller clubs will close. Gliding will
have a quieter voice as airline travel and demand for airspace grows.

This is something for individual clubs to decide about for themselves.
Either they want to grow or they're happy as they are. (Some clubs
that own their fields are cunningly off-setting their shrinking
membership and rising costs by building power hangars and renting them
out.) National bodies can do little or nothing - they can't tell the
clubs how to run themselves, only give advice if they want it.

If you want to grow your club, download the GFA Development Guide and
implement it's advice. Don't talk it to death, just do it.


Dan

People keep going on about the decline in membership.
Funny, but our club is busier now than at any time in the last 6 years (that I
have been a member).
The cost of gliding.
Winches work - old rag and tube gliders get expensive to maintain eventually. By
comparison the workhorse glass gliders seem to be cheapest in the long run. They
make better trainers because of better performance and handling, and certainly
are more "sexy" for attracting students.
Nicer facilities would be nice - but then we would lose members because costs
would go up. (play to your market?)
Those looking at the decline in membership in the EU at the moment need to
consider the demographics and economics contributing. New rules suddenly prevent
a lot of the gliding population from flying solo because of age. The BGA members
now have a lot more bureaucracy to deal with, not much fun. Germany has a
rapidly ageing population, has high unemployment, and is losing economically
active people at the highest rate since the second world war. Hardly a growth
market for any recreation activity.
Presumably this will stabilise, but statistically we can expect the number of
EASA regulated pilots to decrease. Largely due factors unrelated to gliding per se.

What we focus on, is that club activity should be fun. That simple - this is why
people do recreation activities - if it is no longer fun, it stops happening. So
those who make it no fun for others find the advantages of joining another club,
or taking up knitting being explained to them. Works wonders.

Dan G wrote:
On Aug 20, 2:43 am, ContestID67 wrote:
I think we are all missing a point about why other sports attract kids
and soaring generally doesn't...

A good post, but I can't decide if I agree with you or not.
Absolutely, the things in those videos are not the reality of gliding
- useful for raising awareness perhaps, but if we sold gliding on
those we'd be misleading potential pilots.

On the other hand, gliding is a lot more immeadiate and rewarding than
you give it credit for - I think you're a little harsh on the
differences between gliding and other "extreme" sports. I learnt to
glide on the winch, and my first half-dozen or so winch launches were
the most exciting thing I've ever done, and I've done a fair few
things.

Even after those first few flights, I never found the early parts of
learning to fly anything other than a thrill - I still remember the
buzz when my instructor said "now you're going to fly the top part of
the launch" - whoa! Or my first attempt to fly the glider down the
approach - utterly crap, speed and reference point all over the shop,
but I so desperately wanted to do it again and again and finally get
the thing on the deck properly. I've sailed, rock climbed and mountain
biked and learning to fly easily equalled any of those.

It was later that the problems start, and why I wrote:

Marketing is almost a side-show; most clubs get plenty of trial flight
customers. Turning them into pilots who stay in the sport for years is
the challenge.

I became incredibly frustrated in my club as getting instruction
became harder and harder during the winter (I joined in the autumn).
Ask any pre-solo pilot who quits and they'll tell you that's why.
Being at the airfield is less fun than something else they could be
doing. I personally desperately wanted to become a soaring pilot and
wasn't going to let these problems stop me, but it shouldn't be that
hard. Post-solo has been equally difficult - everybody knows many solo
pilots soon jack it in as their progression stops.

What to do about that? It's not hard. Have a glider that can be booked
for instruction, so the trainee knows it's worth their while to go to
the field. Have an instructor incentive scheme that's actually
worthwhile - ask the instructors what they want, and give them it, so
you have enough to provide flight instruction. Encourage your field to
be run better - get it going at 9am in the morning, not 10.30. Make it
clear to everyone what time they should get there in the morning -
they'll moan, but soon find that it's worthwhile as everything starts
happening faster rather than waiting around for instructors, marshalls
and winch/tug drivers to turn up in their own sweet time. Get the
launch rate up through good training and support for people are doing
the ground-handling (i.e. not shouting at people when they make
mistakes, but actually helping them to do it better). Have a post-solo
development system.

The trouble is, it *is* hard. Clubs are mostly made up of people who
have been gliding for years and have a fixed view of "the way things
should be done". Getting them to change is nigh-on impossible. I have
no idea if it's even possible.

If a gliding club wants to grow, it needs to put these things in
order. "Marketing" is, if anything, a distraction away from the real
problems gliding faces.

But does any of this matter? Gliding worldwide is declining quickly.
German gliding is imploding and in the UK membership is at it's lowest
point for decades. Is this a problem? Hard to say. Most clubs are big
enough for it not to be a problem for a while yet. Having fewer people
in the sport will mean clubs are less congested and it will be easier
to get a launch when you want. There will be fewer people trying to
fly the club aircraft. As the number of pilots declines and there are
still a few sales of new sailplanes, second hand glider prices will
drop.

On the other hand, clubs may well shrink to the point where mid-week
launching is unviable due to lack of demand. Prices will have to rise
to make up for falling numbers. Smaller clubs will close. Gliding will
have a quieter voice as airline travel and demand for airspace grows.

This is something for individual clubs to decide about for themselves.
Either they want to grow or they're happy as they are. (Some clubs
that own their fields are cunningly off-setting their shrinking
membership and rising costs by building power hangars and renting them
out.) National bodies can do little or nothing - they can't tell the
clubs how to run themselves, only give advice if they want it.

If you want to grow your club, download the GFA Development Guide and
implement it's advice. Don't talk it to death, just do it.


Dan