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#81
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"Steven Barnes" wrote
I do. I'm about half way through my ifr training (about 230 hours total time over 3 years). My pesonal VFR minimums are 3,500 ovc, 3,000 bkn. I had to divert once due to weather going from 4,000 bkn to 800 within 20 minutes. First, a question - if you've seen weather go from 4,000 bkn to 800, how is a 3,000 ft bkn minimum keeping you safe? Second, an observation - I've seen it go from CAVU to below ILS minimums (200 and 1/2) in less than 30 minutes. Luckily I was right over an airport when I called ahead to my class C home base. Fetched the plane the next day. Just realize that when you're VFR, you're never far from an airport and you can see the weather going bad as it happens. Little VFR-only fields are all over the place, and in most of the US you can cruising VFR, decide to bail, and be on the ground in less than 10 minutes - meaning you don't have to be very good at predicting the weather and monitoring trends to escape. IFR, if you're cruising and decide to bail, you're looking at 20-30 minutes before you are on the ground. Further, you can't see what the weather is doing when you're in the clouds or above them. Thus IFR you are more dependent on being able to predict the weather and monitor trends, not less. Even so, once I get the rating, I'm betting my ifr minimums will still be around the 2k agl mark (2-3 miles visibility). In that case, you would benefit far more from some competent instruction in how to fly marginal VFR than from an instrument rating. Just my opinion as a practicing instrument instructor... Michael |
#82
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"Michael" wrote in message om... "Steven Barnes" wrote snip Even so, once I get the rating, I'm betting my ifr minimums will still be around the 2k agl mark (2-3 miles visibility). In that case, you would benefit far more from some competent instruction in how to fly marginal VFR than from an instrument rating. Just my opinion as a practicing instrument instructor... I wonder if minimums in this case are being misinterpreted. For me, the reason for a 2k minimum (and at least 1 mile visibility) is not because I don't feel comfortable shooting an ILS down to 200', it's because I fly a single engine plane and I want an out if the engine decides to take the day off. If I'm at least within gliding distance of higher ceilings, I know I can break out and have a chance to find a place to land (side note: there's a pretty good article in a recent IFR about practicing engine out under the hood). I see this as conservative risk management (maybe more conservative than others), not a lack of proficiency. By the same reasoning, regardless of weather, I think twice about flying over mountains if something will prevent me from getting decent altitude. I also don't fly at night (other than the minimum that was required for the PP). As I gain experience, I may lower my minimums to 1k, but I can't see going much lower than that, at least not in my current plane. What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from IFR training? Even under IFR you may find yourself in marginal VFR conditions, and you still have the responsibility to see and avoid, know what the weather's doing, have as many outs as you think you need, etc. Or is it that IFR training assumes these skills are already well developed? mark |
#83
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What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from IFR training? Pilotage. Ground reference maneuvers. Basic attitude flying. VFR chart interpretation (wrt low altitude rubbernecking). These are the skills you need for low level marginal vfr flight. -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#84
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"Teacherjh" wrote in message
... What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from IFR training? I concede that IFR training may not entail these subjects (except for attitude flying and possibly ground reference), but you definitely need the same skills, specifically: Pilotage. Better know how to do this even under IFR. Electrical systems don't care whether you filed or not. Ground reference maneuvers. You could argue that "circle to land" requires similar skills, but I won't make a fuss on this one. Basic attitude flying. This is DEFINITELY covered under IFR training. VFR chart interpretation (wrt low altitude rubbernecking). Most CFIIs teach using both VFR and IFR charts in case Murphy shows up. I guess the tacit assumption is that you already know how to read a VFR chart and can recognize things that might get you in trouble in an emergency. These are the skills you need for low level marginal vfr flight. -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#85
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I concede that IFR training may not entail these subjects (except for attitude flying and possibly ground reference), but you definitely need the same skills... Yes, you need all those skills (and others) for all flying. You may not use them all on every flight, but you need them in your toolbox. But the question is "...couldn't get from IFR training?" by which I infer "is specifically taught in IFR training". Low altitude circle to land is NOT taught in the IFR training I got, except once when I asked to do a complete low circling approach and land. It was an eye opener. IFR flight training is primarily about flying solely with reference to instruments, and working in the system. Some weather may be covered. Jose -- (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address) |
#86
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"Mark Astley" wrote
I wonder if minimums in this case are being misinterpreted. For me, the reason for a 2k minimum (and at least 1 mile visibility) is not because I don't feel comfortable shooting an ILS down to 200', it's because I fly a single engine plane and I want an out if the engine decides to take the day off. That's actually quite sensible. My point is that if you're goint to stick to those minimums, you woud probably be safer flying that weather VFR under the bottom rather than IFR. It's not necessarily easier - but with the right training, I think it's safer. I've snipped the rest of what you wrote, but I do very much agree with it. I take a pretty dim view of single engine IFR over mountains, or with ceilings of less than 1000 ft - not because I'd never do it, but because I HAVE done it and never really felt good about it. In the end, I wound up with a twin. What skills would a marginal VFR pilot need that they couldn't get from IFR training? Low level navigation and planning, mostly. Planning a route to be flown at low level is a lot different when you have to follow rivers, roads, and railroads for obstruction clearance and navigation. The available cues under a 1000 ft ceiling are a lot different than they are at higher altitudes, and mistakes can be deadly. If you can't effectively do an impromptu visual diversion at low altitude and in low vis, you lack essential safety skills for low altitude VFR. The emergency procedures are different too. You have to be prepared to make a precautionary off-airport landing with power, and that means practice landings on soft and/or rough fields, training in field selection, etc. Uphill or into the wind? Cow pasture or horse pasture? Newly ploughed or newly harvested? These are all major issues. Michael |
#87
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#88
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#89
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