Class A airspace

Bert Willing schrieb:
The restriction of the airspace in the French Alps has nothing to do with
this accident which happened over the Massif Central (an A319 inbound
Montpellier hitting a Grob Twin III).

Ah Didon, mais on parle des évènements différentes!

I've looked it up: It wasn't actually a midair, but a near miss ... very
near to be precise, estimated separation was 20m! Here is the report:
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/1999/f-...f-ie990605.pdf
(for our friends on the other side of the pond: sorry, available in
French only.)

The crucial remark is on page 11:


RECOMMANDATIONS DE SÉCURITÉ

1. ... En conséquence, le BEA renouvelle les deux premières
ecommandations émises à la suite de l'abordage du 12 février 1999 dans
la région de Montpellier: [that was the midair you mentioned]

....

1) la mise en place de classes d'espace adaptées, ou d'espaces
aériens spécifiques, assurant la protection des itinéraires IFR publiés;


And that is what they did.

Stefan

You're correct, this is why the restrictions over the Northern area where
implemented. And they took advantage of this change to adapt the holdings
vor Lyon-Satolas at the same time, eating parts of our airspace over the
Vercors range :-(

"Stefan" wrote in message
. ..
Bert Willing schrieb:
The restriction of the airspace in the French Alps has nothing to do with
this accident which happened over the Massif Central (an A319 inbound
Montpellier hitting a Grob Twin III).

Ah Didon, mais on parle des évènements différentes!

I've looked it up: It wasn't actually a midair, but a near miss ... very
near to be precise, estimated separation was 20m! Here is the report:
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/1999/f-...f-ie990605.pdf
(for our friends on the other side of the pond: sorry, available in French
only.)

The crucial remark is on page 11:


RECOMMANDATIONS DE SÉCURITÉ

1. ... En conséquence, le BEA renouvelle les deux premières ecommandations
émises à la suite de l'abordage du 12 février 1999 dans la région de
Montpellier: [that was the midair you mentioned]

...

1) la mise en place de classes d'espace adaptées, ou d'espaces
aériens spécifiques, assurant la protection des itinéraires IFR publiés;


And that is what they did.

Stefan

The reason for the Angst about the airspace and us pleasure users is
not about a
1000' (+- altitude errors) infraction of class A airspace, its about
the public crying bloody murder if glider drills an airliner with 150
people on board.

The government officials would love nothing more than to ban ALL
pleasure traffic from the skies if they could.......all we need to do
is give them a reason.

We are maybe 50 thousand people who enjoy the air for pleasure at the
will of the other 300 Million people who live here in the US.

There is no significant financial benefit from us 50 thousand pleasure
flyers, and in fact we are noisy, annoying and scary to at least 50
million of those people.

You see, if we were to kill any significant of them and they got ****ed
off about it....what do you think would happen?

Do you think they would blame the airliners or their pilots....some
might.....but most of the others would say that we dont HAVE to be up
there and are just doing it for kicks anyway.....and have no qualms
about shutting us down.

It was interesting to note how the incident about the Jet that ran down
a glider at 16,000' in Minden Monday.

A reporter described the even as a "Glider hit the Jet" as if he
purposely failed to avoid the jet and aimed for it......I know that
sounds stupid, but it reveals the perception of who needs to do the
avoiding. Basically we are up there for fun and better stay out of
everyones way.

Same thing many years ago when another jet ran down a Cessna near San
Diego that was in contact with the controllers as he was practicing
landings etc.......the loss of life was total with 150+ dead from the
airliner. Again it was the publics perception that the Cessna got in
the way of the jet and was the cause of the accident, when it was the
jet or controllers that screwed up.

Lets not give anyone reason to question why we need to be in the air.

We should NEVER condone airspace violations or willingly accept and
document them, let alone the very organization that governs us, lest we
dig our own graves.

THAT is the point of all this banter!!!!

Ray

jb92563 wrote:
The reason for the Angst about the airspace and us pleasure users is
not about a
1000' (+- altitude errors) infraction of class A airspace, its about
the public crying bloody murder if glider drills an airliner with 150
people on board.
snip
We should NEVER condone airspace violations or willingly accept and
document them, let alone the very organization that governs us, lest we
dig our own graves.

THAT is the point of all this banter!!!!

Ray

We may not be able to aviod negaive consequences, even if we are doing
everything by the book. But if we are not doing everything by the book,
we are likely to have the book thrown at us collectively, not just
individually.

As a follow-up, one of the pilots has responded to our email, and
requested more time to review the situation because they were using a
borrowed glider. They agreed to remove the flight if they cannot find a
satisfactory explanation.

Doug Haluza
SSA-OLC Admin

Doug Haluza wrote:
Yes, after some further checking, we had also found these flights, and
have already contacted the pilots via email. If a satisfactory
explanation is not received, the flights will likely be removed per the
SSA policy. For more info see:

http://www.ssa.org/members/contestre...OLCSummary.htm

However, as I said before, this public forum is not the place to
address these issues. You should not make public accusations against
named individuals without knowing all the facts.

Please use the partner check function in the OLC, or in the US you can
contact the SSA-OLC committee directly by email at olcatssadotorg.

Doug Haluza
SSA-OLC Admin

Soarin Again wrote:
Try Thiele Uwe DE (BW) flight file 665c3k51-190 he
is currently listed in 7th place on the U.S. OLC.
It is after all a 3DM so maybe they were both flying.
But Link Mario is shown as the co-pilot but Peter
Klose is the PIlots name that shows up when the flight
is opened up in SeeYou. Then again maybe Peter made
the flight and Thiele is claiming it.

I'm just sick and tired of people claiming that it
is just altimeter error. Scoring pilots who exceed
18k by more than a small margin without some documentation
to show dramitic altimeter error, is just rewarding
pilots for blatant disregard of regulations.