What am I looking for?

What's the solution to this question?
What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
wanting the following:
- automatic hookups
- easy to rig
- flaps
- well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
- climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
east coast conditions

Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
partners.

Thanks.
Wad.

On Nov 1, 8:44 pm, Waduino wrote:
What's the solution to this question?
What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
wanting the following:
- automatic hookups
- easy to rig
- flaps
- well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
- climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
east coast conditions

Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
partners.

Thanks.
Wad.

Ok, this is going to be a long thread.

My list of candidates:
What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class

LS-3/A
Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
Glasflugel 304CZ
DG200
LS-6

For slightly more advanced pilots
ASW-20 A/B/C
Ventus A/B/C

Some of these have automatic control hookups and some do not (even in
the same year and between models) Ventus Ca's can have manual hookups
into the 1990's.

The LS ships are high on my list. The 6 is nearly as competitive as
newer ships, the LS-3 is known for great handling as well as the
Glasflugels.

I fly a Ventus B because I could find one when I was looking and the
LS-6's were few and far between. For the $$$ the LS-3's are hard to
be beat. The ASW-20's are great on the ridges with a softer ride.

Find a ship in good shape (a refinish will cost nearly $25K today) and
look for a good trailer as well (nearly as important as the ship).

Review Pez for buying instructions and have fun.

My list of candidates:
What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class

LS-3/A
Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
Glasflugel 304CZ
DG200
LS-6

For slightly more advanced pilots
ASW-20 A/B/C
Ventus A/B/C


That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]

Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

Wad.

On Nov 2, 6:15 am, Waduino wrote:
My list of candidates:
What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class

LS-3/A
Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
Glasflugel 304CZ
DG200
LS-6

For slightly more advanced pilots
ASW-20 A/B/C
Ventus A/B/C

That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]

Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

Wad.

Buy as much performance as you can and don't look back...

On Nov 1, 7:44 pm, Waduino wrote:
What's the solution to this question?
What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
wanting the following:
- automatic hookups
- easy to rig
- flaps
- well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
- climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
east coast conditions

Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
partners.

Thanks.
Wad.

I love my Mini-Nimbus. Good climber, great in light conditions.
Handles great and lands astonishingly well.
Automatic hook ups and lots of room.
There is one on Wings and Wheels in Ohio last I looked.

Waduino wrote:
My list of candidates:
What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class

LS-3/A
Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
Glasflugel 304CZ
DG200
LS-6

For slightly more advanced pilots
ASW-20 A/B/C
Ventus A/B/C


That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]

Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

Wad.

If you're OK with 1st-generation, 15-meter performance, Zuni's fit your
criteria.

For any of a number of reasons (e.g. large-deflection flaps *only* [i.e.
no spoilers], side stick [in as-built Zuni-I's...parallellogram center
stick in Zuni II's and some modified Zuni I's], non-German glass, a
high-profile fatality in the prototype, all-flying tail, probably some
other items I'm forgetting...), it tends to be overlooked/dissed by fans
of groupthink.

Nonetheless, its Wortmann FX-67-K-170/150 airfoils are relentlessly
docile, and were used by many 1st-generation glass ships (e.g. Nimbus
II, (metal) Nugget, PIK-20, Mini-Nimbus, Vega, and probably more. Come
to think of it, the last two ships in that list *might* also fit your
auto-connection criteria (I'm hands-on familiar only w. the Zuni).

Zuni's are not all that common (~20 manufactured), but for all the above
reasons, the price tends to be right when they do come on the market.
I've been flying S/N 3 since '81; hopped into it w. ~400 total
hours...and it hasn't killed me (or even scared me too much :-)) yet.

In any event, have fun looking...and buying...and SOARing!!!

Regards,
Bob - YMMV - W.

P.S. To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever died from failing to
connect a self-connecting sailplane connection. Personally, I think
self-connections are a HUGE safety feature, regardless of how paranoid,
safety-conscious, or disciplined someone is. They're also hugely
convenient. FWIW, my present perspective arose only after purchasing a
Zuni. In any event *I* don't think you're being silly in placing
auto-connection high on your personal list. Moreover, you know yourself
better than anyone else.

Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.


No you're not! One of the reasons I upgraded from an ASW-20 to a
Discus 2 was for the automatic connections.

With the constraints you have, I think you should take a good look at
the 304CZ. I nearly bought one myself and can testify the handling is
very good. Being a newer ship, you won't have to worry about
refinishing and it should come with modern instruments and a decent
trailer (things you don't mention, but which I think are important).
With the 17-meter wings, it should be a good match for your east-coast
conditions. Its performance isn't far shy of that of the ASW-20.

Overall, German-built gliders have more brand equity than those from
other countries, but the 304 CZ has a loyal following in the USA and
used ones seem to hold their price and sell quickly.

Mike

Waduino wrote:
My list of candidates:
What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class

LS-3/A
Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
Glasflugel 304CZ
DG200
LS-6

For slightly more advanced pilots
ASW-20 A/B/C
Ventus A/B/C


That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]

Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

You aren't being at all silly, I've lost two friends and two others
severely injured due to improperly connected controls (all were
experienced pilots, and in some cases, a positive control check was
apparently done). In particular, I won't even consider a glider with a
manual hookup on the elevator. From the above list:

LS-3A - wings similar in weight to other flapped gliders of the
era, I believe the flaperons are the only manual hookup,
accessible outside the fuselage, no hoteliers.

LS-3 - wings are quite heavy due to extra mass balance, otherwise
similar to A

DG-200 - automatic elevator hookup, rest manual, good access

LS-6 - manual flaperon hookup that is not visible except
through use of mirrors, history of disconnect accidents

ASW-20(A) - manual hookup on all controls, missed elevator
hookup has killed a number of pilots.

ASW-20B/C - automatic elevator hookup, other controls manual
hookup but reasonably accessible.

As others have mentioned, the Mini-Nimbus has automatic hookups, good
performance, and decent handling (particularly the later ones with
conventional elevator). The Mosquito shares the same wing, with nicer
handling, but slightly less performance.

In my opinion, the manual hookups on the LS-3A, ASW-20B or C, and DG-200
are not as big a problem as some other gliders, as there is no elevator
connection to miss, and the hookups are accessible and easy to inspect.
They are also great handling gliders with decent cross-country
performance. The 20B is noticeably heavier than the 20C, and as a
result suffers a bit in climb.

If one really wants to race 15M, and doesn't want to spend a fortune,
the Ventus B has automatic hookups, but is a bit of a challenge to fly
well, and I found it tiring after a few hours. The LS-6 is a delightful
glider in flight, but I personally would think twice about buying one
because of the flaperon hookups.

Of course, the ASW-27, Ventus 2, and LAK-17A are all great modern
gliders once you get them sorted out, if you can afford them...

Marc

On Nov 2, 7:15 am, Waduino wrote:

...Am I being silly in putting automatic connection
so high on my list?...

I certainly don't think so.

My friend Steve Smith has calculated that, overall, there is an
uncorrected connection fault in about 1 of every 1000 times a
sailplane is assembled, and that about 50% of those connection faults
result in a fatal accident. The other 50% aren't that pretty either.

Given those numbers, in a contest season of 2000 assemblies you'd see
about one fatality every year. My memory is far from perfect, but It
seems that that's what we saw through the 1990s.

As another poster wrote, the numbers get a helluva lot better once you
have auto connects for at least the primary flight controls. I don't
know of any accidents or even incidents where the standard arm-in-
funnel or pin-in-slot torsional auto-connects failed to engage.

Thanks, Bob K.

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Waduino wrote:
My list of candidates:
What you didn't say is if you want to race someday in 15M class

LS-3/A
Glasflugel 303 Mosquito
Glasflugel 304CZ
DG200
LS-6

For slightly more advanced pilots
ASW-20 A/B/C
Ventus A/B/C


That looks a lot like my short list, BUT the LS-3 (and less so the 3A)
has fairly heavy wings and hotelier connections, I believe. So I'm not
crazy about that choice. The Mosquito sounds like a great choice, but
again I wonder about wing weight. [We rig on grass and a one-man
rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]

Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

You aren't being at all silly, I've lost two friends and two others
severely injured due to improperly connected controls (all were
experienced pilots, and in some cases, a positive control check was
apparently done). In particular, I won't even consider a glider with a
manual hookup on the elevator. From the above list:

LS-3A - wings similar in weight to other flapped gliders of the
era, I believe the flaperons are the only manual hookup,
accessible outside the fuselage, no hoteliers.

LS-3 - wings are quite heavy due to extra mass balance, otherwise
similar to A

DG-200 - automatic elevator hookup, rest manual, good access

LS-6 - manual flaperon hookup that is not visible except
through use of mirrors, history of disconnect accidents

ASW-20(A) - manual hookup on all controls, missed elevator
hookup has killed a number of pilots.

ASW-20B/C - automatic elevator hookup, other controls manual
hookup but reasonably accessible.

As others have mentioned, the Mini-Nimbus has automatic hookups, good
performance, and decent handling (particularly the later ones with
conventional elevator). The Mosquito shares the same wing, with nicer
handling, but slightly less performance.

In my opinion, the manual hookups on the LS-3A, ASW-20B or C, and DG-200
are not as big a problem as some other gliders, as there is no elevator
connection to miss, and the hookups are accessible and easy to inspect.
They are also great handling gliders with decent cross-country
performance. The 20B is noticeably heavier than the 20C, and as a
result suffers a bit in climb.

If one really wants to race 15M, and doesn't want to spend a fortune,
the Ventus B has automatic hookups, but is a bit of a challenge to fly
well, and I found it tiring after a few hours. The LS-6 is a delightful
glider in flight, but I personally would think twice about buying one
because of the flaperon hookups.

Of course, the ASW-27, Ventus 2, and LAK-17A are all great modern
gliders once you get them sorted out, if you can afford them...

Marc

The LS-6C has auto-hookups, but they are pretty rare in North America.

I've owned an ASW20 and LS-6b in the past. Both were great gliders. I
used auto-hookups as one of my rationalizations for getting my current
ASW27b, which is an incredible glider by the way. Might be reachable
with a three-way .

At the low end of your range a nice Mosquito would be a good choice. At
the upper end, an LS-6C or a 304CZ. A good Ventus B or C could be in the
middle. The Ventus is the only one of those with "light" wings, but none
are hard to rig.

Dave