What am I looking for?

On Nov 2, 7:15 am, Waduino wrote:

Am I being silly in putting automatic connection so high on my list?
It just seems sensible to me and perhaps something that would make the
ship more marketable when I decide to move on or out in a few years.

I would not turn down a glider that met my needs because if had manual
control connections. However I would never fly a glider with manual
connections that were not safetied.

I used safety pins on my ASW19b. They hung in the cockpit when the
glider was not assembled and were in view if I was stupid enough, or
distracted enough, to get in with out fitting them. Yes I know its
still possible to screw up but controls have failed on gliders with
automatic connection too. Use safeties and always do a positive
control check and the risks of manual hook ups are acceptable in my
opinion.


Andy

On Nov 2, 10:50 am, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Nov 2, 7:15 am, Waduino wrote:

...Am I being silly in putting automatic connection
so high on my list?...

I certainly don't think so.

Bob,

Can you, or anyone else, point to any accident that was caused by
incorrectly assembled Hoteliers when a safety device, such as a pin,
was installed in all fittings. I know of none.

I used to carry spare pins and give them to other pilots had had not
previously used them.

Andy

On Nov 1, 10:44 pm, Waduino wrote:
What's the solution to this question?
What's a good first glider for someone transitioning from a CS77 and
wanting the following:
- automatic hookups
- easy to rig
- flaps
- well behaved in terms of stall/spin, and
- climbs well in weak conditions and runs reasonably well in average
east coast conditions

Budget? Say 20-60k US, depending whether I go alone or with 1 or 2
partners.

Thanks.
Wad.

Other than flaps, the ships that come to mind are Discus and ASW-24.
In the East you go almost as
fast with Std ship. Both are very nice to fly and have automatic
everything. Throw the LS-4 in also though
I think you may be hooking up controls on that.
Other than '20, flaps don't get you much in landing. Most 15M ships
don't have enough flap
deflection to be really useful.
If flaps are important to you, look very seriously at the '20. A model
will land anywhere. That said, they are heavier to rig and a bit more
complex to fly, C has auto elevator- the most important in my view. A
can be retrofitted.
Ya gotta figure out what is most important to you.
Good luck
UH

Whaddo I know:
If you're not over 6' (183cm) tall or too broad, buy P7. It meets
all your listed requirements.
Don't expect to accomplish everything it's seller has done in the
Ventus, most of us can't figure out how he does it.

However I think that the automatic control hookup thing is a little
overrated.
....As the crowd are loading rifles, I can say I've had a L'Hotellier
fail in flight, and landed safely.
It was an LS-6a with the LS sleeves in place. The spring in the
L'Hotellier failed.

If pilots don't want to be responsible for a proper preflight and
positive control check (also known as a D.I.), there are other things
are likely botched up. For example, it's possible to launch a few
gliders with the MAIN SPAR PIN missing! That could spoil your day.

My next launch will be in a glider with ten control hookups I am
responsible to connect (six with Wedekind sleeves, four with attached
safety pins), plus three spar pins to install and safety. The glider
cost half what the newer one with automatic connections would have
been, and according to some pilots who have owned both, has similar
performance.
Jim

Automatic hookups are nice, but a good preflight is better.

Anyone who thinks LS6 connectors are hard to connect and inspect
hasn't rigged an LS6. Very easy to see and touch, and the pilot can
easily perform a positive control check on the flaperons himself by
standing behind the wings next to the fuselage and holding both
flaperons at the same time. Easy to check for secure connection and
full and free deflection, and you can watch the stick move at the same
time. Nice.

Since the airbrakes do not suck out at aerotow speeds, they are a lot
less critical. Elevator is automatic.

That aside, the 6's flaps help a little in slowing down for landing,
but nowhere near like a 20 or Ventus B.

Sure flies nice, though!

That being said - Performance, trailer, instruments, finish, hookups;
all should be looked at.

Nobody said it would be easy!

Good luck finding your new toy.

Kirk
66

Andy wrote:
Can you, or anyone else, point to any accident that was caused by
incorrectly assembled Hoteliers when a safety device, such as a pin,
was installed in all fittings. I know of none.

I agree that safety pins pretty much do the job if properly installed an
verified. I have my doubts about sleeves, as I know of a number of
accidents where they were used, allegedly positively checked, and the
connections came apart after takeoff. I have demonstrated to myself
that you can slide a sleeve far enough closed with the ball out of the
socket to pass a half-hearted control check.

I used to carry spare pins and give them to other pilots had had not
previously used them.

My real issue isn't so much with Hoteliers as they work fine when
connected properly and pinned. My problem is with myself, as I know
perfectly well that I might get it right 99.9% of the time, but all it
takes is a slight distraction to get it wrong once...

Marc

On Nov 2, 7:15 am, Waduino wrote:
[We rig on grass and a one-man
rigging thingie is not that easy to operate in a lumpy field]

You don't need to shy away from heavy wings anymore because Mesa
Inventore Corp, has a slick 3-wheel "wing rigger" that rolls just fine
over rough ground and the third wheel keeps it standing upright
without the little stabilizing bar that always seems to dig into soft
ground. Breaks down into small pieces. I'd consider ther LS-3 a good
candidate with a Wing Rigger, so is the DG-200, etc. E-mail me for the
address for Mesa Invention Corp.
JJ

kirk.stant wrote:
Automatic hookups are nice, but a good preflight is better.

Both is best...

Anyone who thinks LS6 connectors are hard to connect and inspect
hasn't rigged an LS6. Very easy to see and touch, and the pilot can
easily perform a positive control check on the flaperons himself by
standing behind the wings next to the fuselage and holding both
flaperons at the same time. Easy to check for secure connection and
full and free deflection, and you can watch the stick move at the same
time. Nice.

I have a couple of times and couldn't see a thing, I could only verify
by feel and tugging on the flaperons. I often see owners with
inspection mirrors peeking inside. If I remember correctly, the
connection is somewhere behind the spar, is there a trick to seeing it?

Beyond that, the fact that I know two very experienced long term LS6
owners who managed to screw up that connection is the main reason I shy
away from them...

Marc

Andy wrote:

Can you, or anyone else, point to any accident that was caused by
incorrectly assembled Hoteliers when a safety device, such as a pin,
was installed in all fittings. I know of none.

The ASW-20 is the only one of these I've rigged and flown. The hatch
giving access to the wing Hoteliers (aileron, brake, flap connections)
is too small to put two hands through, so you have to connect the wing
controls one handed and mostly by touch. Mine had Weedekind locking
sleeves fitted to the Hoteliers. I wouldn't touch an ASW-20 without them
because they make checking the connections by touch so much easier.

I used to carry spare pins and give them to other pilots had had not
previously used them.

I can't imagine putting pins into the wing Hoteliers on an ASW-20 rather
than using Weedekind sleeves, but ymmv.

OTOH I had no problem with the pin on the elevator Hotelier because its
out in the open where you can see what you're doing from both sides and
the rear.

If you're rigging a glider with Hoteliers you MUST NOT allow anybody to
distract you while you connect them up. Then you or somebody you trust
MUST go round and check them again before you do positives. IMHO
positives are mandatory every time the glider is rigged and should be
repeated before flying it every day even if its been left rigged overnight.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

See the Wing Rigger atwingrigger.com

You don't need to shy away from heavy wings anymore because Mesa
Inventore Corp, has a slick 3-wheel "wing rigger" that rolls just fine
over rough ground and the third wheel keeps it standing upright
without the little stabilizing bar that always seems to dig into soft
ground. Breaks down into small pieces. I'd consider ther LS-3 a good
candidate with a Wing Rigger, so is the DG-200, etc. E-mail me for the
address for Mesa Invention Corp.
JJ