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The new Electric Cessna 172



 
 
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  #31  
Old January 1st 13, 07:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

wrote:


http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/12/sup...-electric.html

--
Mark


Practical, manufacturable high temperature superconductors would enable
a whole bunch of neat things and would be as spectacular as a cure for the
common cold, lasting peace in the Middle East, and controlled fusion, and
is just as likely to happen in the near future.

  #33  
Old January 2nd 13, 11:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dylan Smith[_2_]
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Posts: 53
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

On 2012-12-31, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
Since you are carrying ALL the energy needed to run, the weight climbs
out of sight (15:1 air:fuel ratio + storage medium).


On a point of pedantry, the mix is not 15:1 oxidiser to fuel. 79% of
the air takes no part in the reaction, so it's more like a 3:1
ratio. Also, petrol (gasoline) engines are at best 30% efficient
at turning the energy released by the fuel into motion (before even
getting to the drive train), electric traction motors are on the order
of 90% efficient at turning electical energy into motion.

While there's a big gap between what battery storage can do (which does
make it impractical for a typical GA aircraft), the gap isn't nearly
as big as you think it is for road vehicles.

  #34  
Old January 2nd 13, 12:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dylan Smith[_2_]
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Posts: 53
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

On 2012-12-31, wrote:

As for "emerging technology", the lithium battery was invented in 1912.


The lithium battery of 1912 shares nothing in common with the lithium-ion
battery of today apart from the use of lithium. That's like saying
the transistor was invented in 1947, so therefore semiconductors are
not going to change or improve.

The Li-Ion battery wasn't actually invented until 1979 and bears no
resemblence to the lithium-ion battery or lithium-polymer-ion battery
(indeed, the particular chemistry for Li-Ion wasn't discovered until
the 1970s). The term "lithium battery" refers to many different battery
chemistries which generally are not alike, except they use Li. Anode
and cathode technology is a hotbed of development, and when it comes
to energy density, the anode and cathode structure is enormously
important.

Li-Ion and Li-Poly has significantly improved just over the last few
years, since I started fiddling with RC helicopters 5 years ago, the
batteries have improved noticably, they've got a bit smaller, the "C"
ratings (the maximum discharge rate) has gone up significantly, and
also the maximum charge rate has significantly increased. And the cost
has gone down, too.

  #35  
Old January 2nd 13, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Orval Fairbairn
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Posts: 824
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

In article , Dylan Smith
wrote:

On 2012-12-31, Orval Fairbairn wrote:
Since you are carrying ALL the energy needed to run, the weight climbs
out of sight (15:1 air:fuel ratio + storage medium).


On a point of pedantry, the mix is not 15:1 oxidiser to fuel. 79% of
the air takes no part in the reaction, so it's more like a 3:1
ratio. Also, petrol (gasoline) engines are at best 30% efficient
at turning the energy released by the fuel into motion (before even
getting to the drive train), electric traction motors are on the order
of 90% efficient at turning electical energy into motion.


The 15:1 ratio is working fluid, including oxidizer. With a battery, you
have to carry the whole mass with you.


While there's a big gap between what battery storage can do (which does
make it impractical for a typical GA aircraft), the gap isn't nearly
as big as you think it is for road vehicles.

  #36  
Old January 2nd 13, 06:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

Dylan Smith wrote:
On 2012-12-31, wrote:
Well, not for cars - there are already all-electric cars with a 200 mile
range. With it being entirely normal for most households to have two or
more cars, it's entirely practical that one be electric in most instances,
since anything that demands cross-country driving can be done in the
other vehicle.


That is 200 miles on the highway with the windows up and no air conditioning.


The typical use pattern of a car is driving a few miles twice a day
and then sitting stationary for at least 14 hours in a driveway which
is more than enough hours to charge off a normal power socket. Even
with the windows down and the AC on full blast there's no issue with
range for the typical daily use of a car.


That isn't the typical pattern around here unless by "a few miles" you
mean 50 to 100 miles.

Perhaps you can point to a nation wide study that shows some national
average numbers?

With most households owning two or more cars, the other car can be used
for any cross-country journeys.


For most households, the second car is an old car or a utility vehicle
like a pickup.

Most people want to use the new car for trips.

The bottom line is that electric cars are NOT selling and likely will
not sell until the range goes up and the price comes down considerably.



  #37  
Old January 2nd 13, 06:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 2,892
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

Dylan Smith wrote:
On 2012-12-31, wrote:

As for "emerging technology", the lithium battery was invented in 1912.


The lithium battery of 1912 shares nothing in common with the lithium-ion
battery of today apart from the use of lithium. That's like saying
the transistor was invented in 1947, so therefore semiconductors are
not going to change or improve.

The Li-Ion battery wasn't actually invented until 1979 and bears no
resemblence to the lithium-ion battery or lithium-polymer-ion battery
(indeed, the particular chemistry for Li-Ion wasn't discovered until
the 1970s). The term "lithium battery" refers to many different battery
chemistries which generally are not alike, except they use Li. Anode
and cathode technology is a hotbed of development, and when it comes
to energy density, the anode and cathode structure is enormously
important.

Li-Ion and Li-Poly has significantly improved just over the last few
years, since I started fiddling with RC helicopters 5 years ago, the
batteries have improved noticably, they've got a bit smaller, the "C"
ratings (the maximum discharge rate) has gone up significantly, and
also the maximum charge rate has significantly increased. And the cost
has gone down, too.


If by "the last few years" you mean around 2004 when the last incremental,
not order of magnitude, improvement to lithium-ion batteries was made,
then I agree.

A couple of orders of magnitude of improvement are needed to make things
like general purpose, e.g. C-172 equivelant, electric airplanes practical.

As for the batteries for RC helicopters, this has more to do with the
market becoming significant than much of anything else.


  #38  
Old January 2nd 13, 08:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Vaughn
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Posts: 154
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

On 1/2/2013 12:35 PM, wrote:
The bottom line is that electric cars are NOT selling


Proof?

Vaughn

  #39  
Old January 2nd 13, 09:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 2,892
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

Vaughn wrote:
On 1/2/2013 12:35 PM, wrote:
The bottom line is that electric cars are NOT selling


Proof?

Vaughn



http://www.sfgate.com/business/artic...al-3954153.php

Electric car sales falling short of goal

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul...icles-20120721

Plug-in hybrid sales soar; all-electric cars stay in low gear

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/01/bu...kers.html?_r=0

Soft Sales Crimp Outlook for Electric Cars

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...ells-200-or-so

September Plug-In Electric Car Sales Surge, As Tesla Sells 200 (Or So)

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In...-fall-in-April

Electric-car sales fall in April

Want more?



  #40  
Old January 2nd 13, 11:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Vaughn
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Posts: 154
Default The new Electric Cessna 172

On 1/2/2013 3:10 PM, wrote:
Vaughn wrote:
On 1/2/2013 12:35 PM,
wrote:
The bottom line is that electric cars are NOT selling


Proof?

Yes, but you seem to have ignored these...

Plug-in electric car sales triple in 2012
http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/c...2012-1.4318285

Electric car sales rising steadily
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business...es-4143761.php

Hybrid, Electric Car Sales Projection May Be To Conservative
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=29410

Electric vehicles proving popular
http://www.newsherald.com/news/busin...opular-1.68215

Electric-drive Car Sales Record New High in November
http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=29338

Hybrid, EV Sales ‘Up 73%’ in 2012, Mintel Says
http://www.environmentalleader.com/2...2-mintel-says/

Sales of Alternative Fuel Vehicles on the Rise.
Will reach record high in 2012, says Mintel
http://www.cspnet.com/news/fuels/art...-vehicles-rise

Electric Car Sales Hit Another Record. Electric car sales reached a
record in November for the fourth consecutive month
http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwood...nother-record/

Sales of electric cars double as new models come online
http://www.equities.com/news/headlin...cat=industrial

I could continue, but you get the idea.
 




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