DG Differences...

Nobody mentioned the obvious yet: If you're not after pure performance,
the "feel" of a glider will be far more important than 5% performance.
Some pilots just like flaps, others just hate them. You may prefer "the
feel" of one glider, an other pilot may prefer "the feel" of a different
glider. Go fly both and decide which one you prefer.

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:23:24 -0700, noel.wade wrote:

This is why I'm phrasing things in terms of speed or XC distance/
aggressiveness. The "climb" flaps of the ASW-20 are certainly
superior (in small but noticeable ways) to the standard-class ships of
the late-70's.

As a some-time 20 driver I found that I almost never used thermal flap.
The glider felt a lot livelier and climbed almost as well in zero flap.
I only used thermal flap when digging myself out of a hole in very weak
lift. I've been told that a 20 spins more easily in thermal flap though
didn't experience that.

If it helps any, read what Andreas Maurer had to say about flying the 20.
I found it very helpful. Mine was an early version with the Jesus flap
setting. A copy of his notes is he

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/asw2..._handling.html

If you do go for the 20 you'll find that learning to fly a flapped glider
is rather like the experience that somebody who learnt to drive an
automatic car has when converting to a manual gearbox: the mechanics of
using the flaps is easy enough but the business of being in the right
flap setting at all times takes time and practise.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. |
org | Zappa fan & glider pilot

I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.

I know own a flapped glider. Would I go back sure. However I like
25.5meters and anything under is just no fun.

So looking at the gliders that you listed. What fits your wallet? What
fits your body? What looks sexy (to you)? What finish is in good
condition (unless you like sanding and painting)? They are all good
gliders, if not they would be sitting on the market cheap...but there
is not much sitting on the market, and it is not cheap.

On the trailer topic. Nimbus 3 in Pfieffer trailer vs last generation
Cobra trailer....time difference to rig is about 3min. You could get
rid of that with a trailer ramp jack.

g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions.

Are you sure about that? The Road & Track Road Test Summary shows that
130' is the typical emergency stopping distance of most cars from 60 mph
(52 knots).

The Porsche Carrera GT, for example, stops in 124'. I would like to see
you stop that D2 as quickly as a Porsche!



How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.

I know own a flapped glider. Would I go back sure. However I like
25.5meters and anything under is just no fun.

So looking at the gliders that you listed. What fits your wallet? What
fits your body? What looks sexy (to you)? What finish is in good
condition (unless you like sanding and painting)? They are all good
gliders, if not they would be sitting on the market cheap...but there
is not much sitting on the market, and it is not cheap.

On the trailer topic. Nimbus 3 in Pfieffer trailer vs last generation
Cobra trailer....time difference to rig is about 3min. You could get
rid of that with a trailer ramp jack.

g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.

In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those
with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive
brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance.
It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short
obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. This
allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available.
Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem
if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way...

Marc

Hi Marc,

Your DG-600 had flaperons, as does my Apis...............they go down
only 12 degrees, great for thermalling, but not so great for steep
approaches. So when we are talking about flapped gliders, do gliders
with un-mixed flaperons count when the topic of steep approaches is
discussed?

Cheers,
Brad


On Apr 17, 7:08*pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:

I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.

In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those
with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive
brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance.
It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short
obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. *This
allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available.
* Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem
if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way...

Marc

Brad wrote:
Hi Marc,

Your DG-600 had flaperons, as does my Apis...............they go down
only 12 degrees, great for thermalling, but not so great for steep
approaches. So when we are talking about flapped gliders, do gliders
with un-mixed flaperons count when the topic of steep approaches is
discussed?

No, that's why I mentioned 40+ degrees. The trailing edge flap/brakes
on my Ventus B and the 40 degree flaps on my ASW-20B made short
obstructed fields seem easy. The 600 and LAK-17A were little better
than standard class ships in that area, however, both kicked into warp
in negative flap...

Marc

On Apr 17, 7:08 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
g l i d e r s t u d wrote:

I am not convinced that a flapped glider will land in a much smaller
field than non flapped glider. I owned a Discus2, and I landed it
out...more times than I would like to discuss in this forum. I am not
going to go into field landing techniques, but I could land very low
energy, nose high, and stop in amazingly short fields, without hitting
the nose on the ground. When taking the glider to the hanger I would
touchdown before the beginning of the hanger and pull around the
corner. total rolling distance is under 130ft in light wind
conditions. How many times do you pick a field with that little
distance? I cleaned my brake regularly to keep it in good working
order.
In my experience, the big advantage of certain flapped gliders (those
with 40+ degree landing position, or incorporating trailing edge dive
brakes like the Ventus A/B) isn't the reduction in stopping distance.
It's the fact that I can make very steep approaches into short
obstructed fields without a significant increase in airspeed. This
allows taking full advantage of whatever stopping distance is available.
Non-flapped gliders require a shallower approach, which is a problem
if there are wires, trees, or a hillside in the way...

Marc

Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph?

I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special
unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and
nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared?

Sadly my Discus 2 went to FL so I cant show you.....maybe it was the
Maughmer winglets.... Now I am stuck with my big heavy glider that has
flaps.

g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph?

I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special
unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and
nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared?

Sadly my Discus 2 went to FL so I cant show you.....maybe it was the
Maughmer winglets.... Now I am stuck with my big heavy glider that has
flaps.

What speed do you land at in order to stop in 130 feet?

g l i d e r s t u d wrote:
Marc in a feild landing you would touch down at 60mph?

I would NOT touch down at 60mph (I must have had one of those special
unflapped gliders that stalled less than 60)? I did say low energy and
nose high. Im not a math guy but isnt energy=velocity squared?

Sadly my Discus 2 went to FL so I cant show you.....maybe it was the
Maughmer winglets.... Now I am stuck with my big heavy glider that has
flaps.

My point was simply that 40 degree flaps or trailing edge dive brakes
produce a tremendous amount of drag, more than spoilers will. Enough
drag that you'll barely accelerate with the nose down 30 or even 40
degrees. Try that coming over our tall western trees with most standard
class gliders and you'll float halfway down a 400 ft patch before you
bleed off enough speed to make that nice low energy landing.

And, yes, I often touch down at over 60 mph (TAS). At a 6000 to 8000
foot density altitude in mountainous terrain, you know perfectly well
you shouldn't be going much slower. Now, your present glider obviously
doesn't have the benefit of nice draggy landing flaps. Try a 27, 20,
Ventus A/B, HP, etc., if you want to experience the real thing...

Marc