If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#111
|
|||
|
|||
"Ron Garret" wrote in message ... I don't think that's a very good example because (one could argue) you're being radar vectored to the approach, which is specifically cited in the AIM as one of the situations where a PT is not needed. You're not being radar vectored to the approach in this example. The last vector was issued by Chicago departure, Chicago Center then issued direct to GRB VORTAC. That's the route clearance you're operating on when Green Bay approach instructs you to join the runway 36 localizer. |
#112
|
|||
|
|||
"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... I've already made my case. You may reread it and the references until you understand it, or choose to disagree. I missed the message in which you did that, didn't make it through my provider. Could you copy and paste it in reply to this message? |
#113
|
|||
|
|||
"rps" wrote in message oups.com... I forgot to mentiond that I'd hold south of DEPRE, left turns. Any concern about EGF456? |
#114
|
|||
|
|||
Steven P. McNicoll said:
"If you begin descent when ten miles from DEPRE you've busted your altitude. The last instruction was 'descend and maintain 3,000, join the runway 36 localizer', approach clearance was issued at five miles from DEPRE." I thought the last instruction was "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six contact tower one one eight point seven." You may not be able to intercept the glideslope from 3000 (e.g., if the signal is weak there), which is why I suggest descending. According to the plate, if you were flying the PT, upon crossing DEPRE southbound, you can descend to 2700 and track outbound on the PT and then descend to 2200 once you've begun turning inbound on the PT. The PT area includes the entire area south of DEPRE and west of the localizer for a radius of 10 nm. So, if you're on the localizer, I believe you can safely descend to 2700 so that you have a chance of capturing the glideslope from below. I suggested to let ATC know so that ATC can correct you if that's not what they want you to do. |
#115
|
|||
|
|||
Good point - I forgot about the other craft. I'd hope that my
communication with ATC about my plan to enter the hold and descend would alert ATC that there may be a conflict. |
#116
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:06:34 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: Alright, here's a real world example for you. You're flying AWI123 from KORD to KGRB, Chicago departure puts you in the east departure track on a 360 heading and hands you off to Chicago Center. Around the Kenosha, WI, area Chicago Center tells you to proceed direct to GRB VORTAC. Down the road a piece you're handed off to Green Bay approach. At GRB the ILS RWY 36 approach is in use, and the approach controller notices you're present track will intercept the localizer about fifteen miles from DEPRE, the LOM/IAF. On initial contact you're told "descend and maintain 3,000 join the runway 36 localizer". About three minutes later you hear the same instruction issued to EGF456. When you're about five miles from DEPRE the approach controller says "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six contact tower one one eight point seven." When you reach DEPRE will you continue towards the runway or will you start a procedure turn? http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00873I36.PDF If I understand your scenario properly, I have intercepted the FAC about 15 miles South of DEPRE and then turned inbound (to the N, towards DEPRE). I am at 3000'. At 5 miles from DEPRE I am cleared for the approach. I should be below the GP at that point so I would just continue along until intercepting the GP, and then descend into the airport. The presence of an aircraft behind me is irrelevant. What is your point? Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#117
|
|||
|
|||
In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "Ron Garret" wrote in message ... I don't think that's a very good example because (one could argue) you're being radar vectored to the approach, which is specifically cited in the AIM as one of the situations where a PT is not needed. You're not being radar vectored to the approach in this example. The last vector was issued by Chicago departure, Chicago Center then issued direct to GRB VORTAC. That's the route clearance you're operating on when Green Bay approach instructs you to join the runway 36 localizer. Yes, but I would think that the instruction to join the localizer constitutes a radar vector, notwithstanding the fact that the controller may or may not have actually voiced the word "vector". rg |
#118
|
|||
|
|||
On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:12:16 -0400, Ron Rosenfeld
wrote: If I understand your scenario properly, I have intercepted the FAC about 15 miles South of DEPRE and then turned inbound (to the N, towards DEPRE). I am at 3000'. At 5 miles from DEPRE I am cleared for the approach. I should be below the GP at that point so I would just continue along until intercepting the GP, and then descend into the airport. The presence of an aircraft behind me is irrelevant. What is your point? Ron, You've lsot me a bit here. I thought your earlier posts and references to 97.20 were arguing that a procedure turn is mandatory by regulation in all cases when it's charted and the standard exceptions (NoPT, vectors to final, etc.) don't apply. The standard exceptions don't apply in this scenario proposed by Steven. If I misunderstood your earlier posts about 97.20, then perhaps we've had a similar point of view all along. I'm intrigued. Tim. |
#119
|
|||
|
|||
Correction - instead of "then descend to 2200 once you've begun turning
inbound on the PT" I should have written "then descend to 2200 once you've begun turning inbound onto the FAC." |
#120
|
|||
|
|||
"rps" wrote in message oups.com... Steven P. McNicoll said: "If you begin descent when ten miles from DEPRE you've busted your altitude. The last instruction was 'descend and maintain 3,000, join the runway 36 localizer', approach clearance was issued at five miles from DEPRE." I thought the last instruction was "AWI123 cleared ILS runway three six contact tower one one eight point seven." You may not be able to intercept the glideslope from 3000 (e.g., if the signal is weak there), which is why I suggest descending. You might want to read the scenario again. The approach clearance was issued when the aircraft was five miles from DEPRE, so when you're ten miles from DEPRE that hasn't happened yet. When ten miles from DEPRE the last instruction was indeed "descend and maintain 3,000, join the runway 36 localizer". When you're five miles from DEPRE you're about 700' below the glideslope and less than tem miles from the GS transmitter. The signal is fine. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
GPT (Gulfport MS) ILS 14 question | A Lieberman | Instrument Flight Rules | 18 | January 30th 05 04:51 PM |
Required hold? | Nicholas Kliewer | Instrument Flight Rules | 22 | November 14th 04 01:38 AM |
more radial fans like fw190? | jt | Military Aviation | 51 | August 28th 04 04:22 AM |
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools | RT | Military Aviation | 104 | September 25th 03 03:17 PM |
IFR in the 1930's | Rich S. | Home Built | 43 | September 21st 03 01:03 AM |