Puchaz spin count 23 and counting

Bruce Greeff wrote:

SOuth Africa is 12 Months. [parachute repack interval]

Thank you. Any other pilots want to tell me the repack
requirements in their country? I know there are lots of
non-U.S. pilots here, and most fly with chutes. When do you
repack them?

Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.

I go on the recommendation of the people who repack mine - the parachute
club at Sibson: they recommend no long than four months between repacks and
when they do them they unpack it, air it for a few days in their repacking
shed, and then carry out a full inspection and deployment test.

Rgds,

Derrick.

Guys...

We've had a lot of interesting conversations, some
on, and some off topic, for which I'm partly to blame,
although I would plead some provocation..

There are two central threads to this which are...

1. Is the Puchasz a safe aeroplane?

and

2. The assertion that BGA spin training routinely spins
in and kills instructors and their pupils..

A bunch of people have helpfully gone off and dug up
the accident reports and the conclusion we've come
to is that certainly since I've been gliding (a paltry,
but intense 14 years, including seven with a full category
rating, and DCFI at one of the UK's leading ab-initio
training centres) we don't appear to have been able
to dig up a single instance of a two seater spinning
in whilst performing the evolving BGA spin avoidance/training
curriculum.. There are, as Bill has said, a lot of
rumours about the recent accident, but no formal report
has yet been issued. When it is issued I have no doubt
we will take recognisance of the conclusions. The Usk
Puch accident made significant changes to the instructor
guidelines for spin training, although this was instructor
on instructor training.

I don't have enough experience in the Puchasz to determine
whether it bites at infrequent intervals, so I won't
comment on the first issue..

However, pertinent to the second point I do know of
one person at my club who has stated that they were
saved from piling in by the spin training they received.

Now we have the facts to hand, although I don't expect
people to back off, I would ask that people who have
made comments on the way we train in the UK go back
and examine their posts in this light.

Mark








At 15:24 11 February 2004, Pete Zeugma wrote:
At 14:06 11 February 2004, Chris Ocallaghan wrote:

ive only been reading your posts for a couple of weeks
and ive already worked out you dont know squat and
infact you are actually a threat to student/low time
glider pilots lives.

No Bill, I don't know a goddam thing.

it shows frequently.

I happened on this newsgroup
several years ago and determined it was so threadbare
that I could
post without any knowledge of the subject at all and
blend right in.

i actually wonder if you post with several different
identities.

Over the months and years, I became bolder. I read
a few books. I'm an
avid reader, and I don't really care what... Knauff,
Piggot, Welch,
Reichmann, Langeweische, et al. I now feel like I know
more about the
sport than most of the people who post to this group.


pity it does not sink in, but then you miss the whole
practical bit dont you! Reichmann is a case in point.

I guess you
could say I've become a white paper expert.

is that toilet paper?

And frankly, from the
outside looking in, this is about the dumbest exercise
I've ever seen
wrapped in the trappings of reasoned cause and effect.

so in all your reading and the huge amount of knowledge
youve gained from it, you have gained a level of understanding
normaly achieved through practical experience, of just
how sudden a glider like a puch can enter into a spin?
some how I doubt that very much.


Organizations get things wrong. My gliding association,
right or
wrong, may it always be right rings a little hollow.

actually the bga have come to the position the instructors
manual currently holds over the last 70 odd years.
its an evolving process.

At 14:42 11 February 2004, Todd Pattist wrote:
Bruce Greeff wrote:

SOuth Africa is 12 Months. [parachute repack interval]

Thank you. Any other pilots want to tell me the repack
requirements in their country? I know there are lots
of
non-U.S. pilots here, and most fly with chutes. When
do you
repack them?
Todd Pattist - 'WH' Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Todd

Until I am shot down, in the UK there are no government
regulations on repacking dates for glider pilots personal
reserve parachutes.

About 15 years ago my own club went through the clubs
parachutes and found a moltley collection on chutes
in a wide variety of cases, with unknown repack dates.


After careful research it was found that the repack
recommendations varied from manufacturer to manufacture
and was dependant on the type of 'chute.

As a result we approached one UK manufacturer Thomas
Sports who specialise in sports parachutes. We agreed
a 6 months repack for all club owned parachutes. This
is strictly observed and any 'chute that is damaged
or suspect is sent earlier.

Cases and contents are changed in line with the manufacterers
recommended life, generally 20 or 25 years dependant
on material.

18 months ago one club member found reason to jump
from about 1000feet and the 'chute worked. He landed
without a scratch.

My own personal 'chute is repacked every 12 months,
but I know its history.

I have taken many 'chutes for repacking some with no
known last repack date but believed to be several years.
Bench test showed that the drogue 'chute worked there
was nothing to suggest the main would not have opened.
I heard one story of a UK jump club who's members jumped
'chutes that had not been repacked for several years
and they worked fine (Note to doubters I cannot support
this with evidence). They did have recently packed
reserves

I believe that where 'chutes are given to first time
pilots and club members, the club has a duty to ensure
they are servicable.

Our club system has been proven to be satisfactory.


Hope this helps

Dave

Derrick Steed wrote:

I go on the recommendation of the people who repack mine - the parachute
club at Sibson: they recommend no long than four months between repacks

Thanks. That's the same interval used in the U.S. I
presume you are in the U.K. Is that interval a requirement,
or just a suggestion?
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

I've never seen a requirement from the BGA - but then maybe I'm not reading
the right things. It's not a suggestion I'm making, I was concerned that I
maintained my pack properly in the event I needed to use it.

The club I was at before the current one used to invite parachute
instructors down from Sibson for winter lectures on the care, feeding and
proper use of parachutes - my experience (although it doesn't seem to have
had any effect on the ability the parachute of those who have used them in
anger) is that most people in the gliding movement (here's where I get to
collect a lot of arrows, I bet) don't know what the proper deployment
procedure is. I hadn't been shown and didn't know until I went to Sibson and
was asked if I knew how to use it - I replied yes, of course, and was
promptly corrected and shown the correct and surefire method.

My own feeling is that there is not enough education available via the BGA
regarding parachutes, their care, use, and maintenance.

Rgds,

Derrick.

In article ,
Todd Pattist wrote:
Derrick Steed wrote:

I go on the recommendation of the people who repack mine - the parachute
club at Sibson: they recommend no long than four months between repacks

Nothing personally against the parachute folks you go to (I have no
idea about them specifically), but isn't this like asking
the monkeys how often you should feed them bananas?
I assume they're making money per repack, right?

Reminds me of an instructor who's given over 500 hours dual in
the past two years and gotten one student through license.
His answer to every student: "you need more training!"

I did once meet a power flying instructor like that. My reasoning is going to the parachute club was this:
1. the chief instructor of the parachute club is well respected in the UK parachute world
2. in my judgement (OK, I'm ignorant but I can smell a rat - GWB has the longest tail I've ever seen) he seemed professional and knew what he was talking about
3. his selling technique of his particular snake oil (as you are implying) was excellent - and I saw them using the oil when I was there, from 10,000 feet no less - jumping from a ukrainian aircraft (them damn commies!)
4. his legs seemed to be long enough and I couldn't detect any signs of scrape marks on his knuckles, and he wasn't overly disposed to scratching his armpits or swinging from the nearby trees - now this is something where I consider myself an expert: most managers I've met do qualify in the armpit scratching and swinging from branches department
5. Surprise at the exchange of money for work is a real surprise coming from the home of capitalism.
Rgds,

Derrick.

Derrick Steed wrote:


I've never seen a requirement from the BGA - but then maybe I'm not reading
the right things. It's not a suggestion I'm making, I was concerned that I
maintained my pack properly in the event I needed to use it.

I was asking if you faced a penalty for flying with your
parachute 4 months and 1 day after your last repack. In the
U.S., if I was to do that, I could (at least in theory) lose
my license to fly. I take it that you face no such
sanction.
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are correct, there is no penalty.

Although most clubs now where parachutes as a matter of course (following some
thinly veiled threats from a certain national coach as was) there is no law
as such. Since I came back to gliding in 1989 after a long break it's always
been my understanding that pilots of single seaters contemplating cross
countries or aerobatics were recommended to where a parachute by the BGA -
the practice has only recently (a few years) been adopted for dual trainers.

In some ways the picture is worse: there are no standards mandated by the CAA
or anyone else relating to emergency parachutes for gliders. When I bought my
first parachute (Thomas Sports Equipment pop-top) little advice was available
other than "by a GQ or Irvin a cheap parachute is not worth the money", so I
did my own research (where I learned there is no CAA standard, or British
Standard [materials yes, complete thing, no]. There was once a CAA approved
parachute - I inherited one when I bought a Dart 17, it was made by Irvin in
1968 and had been approved by the CAA (I bought the Dart in 1990) for the
World championships some time in the 60's.

Rgds,

Derrick.

Mark Stevens wrote:

There are two central threads to this which are...

1. Is the Puchasz a safe aeroplane?

and

2. The assertion that BGA spin training routinely spins
in and kills instructors and their pupils..

I can't answer either. I will say that I personally
wouldn't consider initiating a spin entry at 800 ft, and I don't
know anyone who would.

That said, there are those in this country with aerobatic
waivers for very low aerobatics. Perhaps the UK standards
for CFI's who do 800 ft spin entries are the
equivalent...I don't know so I can't make judgements
about whether BGA practices are safe...

I still wonder why one wouldn't just do it 800 ft above
a cloud deck instead...

Derrick Steed wrote:
In article ,
Todd Pattist wrote:
Derrick Steed wrote:


Nothing personally against the parachute folks you go to (I have no
idea about them specifically), but isn't this like asking
the monkeys how often you should feed them bananas?
I assume they're making money per repack, right?

Reminds me of an instructor who's given over 500 hours dual in
the past two years and gotten one student through license.
His answer to every student: "you need more training!"

I did once meet a power flying instructor like that. My reasoning is going to the parachute club was this:
5. Surprise at the exchange of money for work is a real surprise coming from the home of capitalism.

Easy now. At my house I am considered "Chief Tightwad." Anyone
telling me I should accept a 100% or even 50% cost increase
(1 extra repack per season, and the season lasts 6 months or 1 year)
for what may be negligible improvement in safety (or even
a decrease in safety) is gonna get a lot of questions.

Perhaps a better question is:
"There are a bunch of riggers in other countries, including
the US PIA as a whole (by a 3:1 margin), and they say 180 days
is fine. How are you more qualified than them, or what is
different about the UK, the riggers here, my chute, or me
to warrant the 120 days instead?"

Then I'd ask if there was a different chute I could get that
would give me a longer repack cycle.

For the extra $50 to $100 a year, I'd expect a good answer.
But keep in mind I'm a serious TIGHTWAD. :P

By the way,
http://www.pia.com/piapubs/pia_posit...day_repack.htm
seems to think Great Britain has a six month cycle.
Dunno where that came from...

Rgds,

Derrick.

Derrick,

keep in mind none of this has anything to do with a critique
of you or the parachute rigger you use. I have no idea
about the answers to any of those questions, I'm sure you've done
a fine job looking into it, and there are other reasons to
do 120 day cycles (maybe it gets you in for an "egress refresher
course") which have nothing to do with the chute itself.
This is just an interesting subject, again, nothing about
anyone personally...ok?

In article ,
Simon Kahn wrote:
Not shooting, just buzzing....
Not Government but BGA Laws &Rules:
Parachutes
RP16.
..The owner should ensure that it is checked regularly
by a competent authority. The interval should not be
greater than three months or the manufacturer's recommendation,...

Yep, in the US that would be 60 days, since some natural fiber chutes
require this. The "or the manufacturer's recommendation" gives
huge leeway...

www.butlerparachutes.com/repack.htm

gives some insight here...

Not shooting, just buzzing....
Not Government but BGA Laws &Rules:
Parachutes
RP16.
...The owner should ensure that it is checked regularly
by a competent authority. The interval should not be
greater than three months or the manufacturer's recommendation,...
..

RP17
Serviceable parachutes should be warn by the occupant(s)
of gliders opertated from BGA sites, subject to the
glider being fitted to accept the occupant(s) wearing
parachute(s).


Dave Martin wrote:
Until I am shot down, in the UK there are no government
regulations on repacking dates for glider pilots personal
reserve parachutes.