taildragger toe-in vs toe-out AGAIN

I should add that in the considerations regarding handling of a
taildragger tyre pressure and tailwheel alignment and gearing are
quite critical as well.

25psi on my tailwind has as much bearing as anything regarding
handling. below 25psi and it is directionally interesting, much above
25psi and it is a bugger to land but very easy to bounce, and bounce,
and bounce.

having the neutral point of the rudder and tailwheel together is
critical. if they are offset from each other you get this very
squirrelly roll out as one has effect, then the other, then the other
until you finally run out of rudder.

the gearing of the tailwheel is important to relaxed landing as well.
having the tailwheel overgeared makes the landing a nightmare.
I tamed mine by moving the link arm in to about half the prior
distance where it attaches to the rudder.


these are all items just as important as toe in/out when considering
taildragger gear.

Stealth Pilot

btw how anyone lands a taildragger with sloppy spring links to the
tailwheel is beyond me.

On 14 Nov 2003 10:07:59 -0800, (Joa) wrote:

to directly answer your questions...

Granted these are set
without weight on the aircraft and the toe-in may change slightly when
under load.

that is a very important issue. what the legs are set at without load
is irrelevant. it is the position of the wheel under load that is of
critical importance. tapered spring legs will behave differently to
pivoting arms which will be different from linear compression legs
with scissor guides. (tailwind vs Auster vs jodel)

I think it boils down to what wins when you start to go into a turn
with a taildragger- does the toed-in outside wheel "drag" and thus
want to straighten you back out or does the toed-out outside wheel get
weight transferred to it and tend to straighten you out (vs tightening
the turn)?

see my other post but I will make the comment that the way a toed in
wheel behaves is entirely dependent on the surface itr is rolling on.
it is likely to be manageable on grass because of the unherent sliding
that makes grass so much of a pleasure to land on.
a wheel with toe in on bitumen would be a decided handful because it
would track in the direction that it was pointed. there is very little
slippage experienced on bitumen which makes the requirements for
alignment before touchdown just that much more critical.

the key to avoiding groundloops is to land straight. dont let them set
up in the first place.

in heavy crosswinds I not averse to landing on the into wind wheel and
tailwheel and holding the wing down. I dont know what that does to the
geometry.

Anybody with some definite answers based on physics?

what I've written is demonstrated physics with my aircraft.

There's lots of
emperical and experiential opinions out there, anybody with some more
factual answers to the argument?

when you start out flying a taildragger dont underestimate the
difficulty, but dont over estimate it either.
learn to fly in ideal conditions. then as experience builds venture
gradually into less ideal conditions. you'll probably scare yourself a
few times and that is healthy. if you persist and master it you'll be
able to handle windsock horizontal conditions with confidence (you may
not enjoy them but you will be capable).

the opportunities for error until you master taildraggers are
considerable.
get yourself an experienced instructor to guide you through the first
few hours and you will be set for life.

be chastened by the example of the astronaut doctor who died in a
Tailwind. press on the wrong foot while correcting and it can be all
over in an instant.

Stealth Pilot

btw how anyone lands a taildragger with sloppy spring links to the
tailwheel is beyond me.

On my RV-4, before we found that it had excessive toe out (almost 5/16"
across each axle vs a spec of 0 to .050"), I tried a number of tailwheel
springs and chain tensions. My hypothesis is that the sloppy spring
links let you get a bunch of rudder deflection before you get much
tailwheel deflection, and this is good at, say, 40MPH and above. Haven't
ever read anything about this, though.

Ed Wischmeyer

e.net wrote:

btw how anyone lands a taildragger with sloppy spring links to the
tailwheel is beyond me.

My hypothesis is that the sloppy spring
links let you get a bunch of rudder deflection before you get much
tailwheel deflection, and this is good at, say, 40MPH and above. Haven't
ever read anything about this, though.

Ed Wischmeyer
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Same experience here over the years, Ed.


Barnyard BOb --

Ed Wischmeyer wrote:

My hypothesis is that the sloppy spring links let you get a bunch of
rudder deflection before you get much tailwheel deflection, and this
is good at, say, 40MPH and above.

This is interesting. One of the things my inspector asked
me to fix was the slop in the tailwheel springs. I got
almost all of it out, and the airplane handles very well
on the ground, but I haven't had it up to 40 mph yet. I've
flown two RV's with loose springs and I thought mine handled
better at low speed, but that may just be wishful thinking.
I've seen lots of recommendations from RV people to make sure
there's at least a little slack in the springs, and I don't
recall ever seeing any RV-flyer recommend NO slack.

My head hurts :-)

Dave 'still ground-bound' Hyde

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:56:40 GMT, Dave Hyde wrote:

My hypothesis is that the sloppy spring links let you get a bunch of
rudder deflection before you get much tailwheel deflection, and this
is good at, say, 40MPH and above.

This is interesting. One of the things my inspector asked
me to fix was the slop in the tailwheel springs. I got
almost all of it out, and the airplane handles very well
on the ground, but I haven't had it up to 40 mph yet. I've
flown two RV's with loose springs and I thought mine handled
better at low speed, but that may just be wishful thinking.
I've seen lots of recommendations from RV people to make sure
there's at least a little slack in the springs, and I don't
recall ever seeing any RV-flyer recommend NO slack.

My head hurts :-)

Dave 'still ground-bound' Hyde
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your setup is fine...
for NO wind or wind STRAIGHT down the runway.

In a crosswind with CONTROLS CROSSED and
you're about to 3 point... guess what you got?

Yep... a rudder AND a tailwheel aimed towards
the boondocks. The stronger the crosswind,
the more problematic this can become.
depending on a lot of factors....
including one's experience level.

The following is my GENERAL statement:

YMMV.

For the most pleasant transition....
The aircraft needs springs that can yield
sufficiently in a timely manner, some 'slack'
to ameliorate this golly-woppled condition
or a combination of both. A lot of the setup
depends on pilot preferences.

Can one do without the above suggestions?
Sure. Beat your head against the wall, too.
That's my 2 cents - given many, many tailwheel
years and hours and I'm sticking to it. g

P.S.
Let me add... it's as much 'art' as science.


Barnyard BOb - no advocate of wheel landings

- Barnyard BOb - wrote:
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 17:56:40 GMT, Dave Hyde wrote:


My hypothesis is that the sloppy spring links let you get a bunch of
rudder deflection before you get much tailwheel deflection, and this
is good at, say, 40MPH and above.

This is interesting. One of the things my inspector asked
me to fix was the slop in the tailwheel springs. I got
almost all of it out, and the airplane handles very well
on the ground, but I haven't had it up to 40 mph yet. I've
flown two RV's with loose springs and I thought mine handled
better at low speed, but that may just be wishful thinking.
I've seen lots of recommendations from RV people to make sure
there's at least a little slack in the springs, and I don't
recall ever seeing any RV-flyer recommend NO slack.

My head hurts :-)

Dave 'still ground-bound' Hyde

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Your setup is fine...
for NO wind or wind STRAIGHT down the runway.

In a crosswind with CONTROLS CROSSED and
you're about to 3 point... guess what you got?

Yep... a rudder AND a tailwheel aimed towards
the boondocks. The stronger the crosswind,
the more problematic this can become.
depending on a lot of factors....
including one's experience level.

The following is my GENERAL statement:

YMMV.

For the most pleasant transition....
The aircraft needs springs that can yield
sufficiently in a timely manner, some 'slack'
to ameliorate this golly-woppled condition
or a combination of both. A lot of the setup
depends on pilot preferences.

Can one do without the above suggestions?
Sure. Beat your head against the wall, too.
That's my 2 cents - given many, many tailwheel
years and hours and I'm sticking to it. g

P.S.
Let me add... it's as much 'art' as science.


Barnyard BOb - no advocate of wheel landings

I agree with both Dave and Bob I have put many hours on my RV-6 in both
configurations. With tight tailwheel springs it is much easier to handle taxing
and takeoffs and landings in a NO WIND condition. But now add some cross wind
and things can get "golly-woppled"** in a hurry with tight springs. Bob is
correct when he says you need SOME slack. Another consideration for spring
tension is whether you can get full rudder deflection in both directions with
tight springs.
My preference at least on an RV-6 is some slack in the springs, which IMO is a
better compromise for all taxi, takeoff, landing configurations.

**Bob's words :-)

Jerry

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 20:39:29 GMT, Jerry Springer
wrote:

Another consideration for spring
tension is whether you can get full rudder deflection in both directions with
tight springs.

And yet ANOTHER consideration (depending upon aircraft type) is whether the
tailwheel-mounting spring relaxes when the tailwheel is off the ground.
That may increase the distance between your rudder horn and your tailwheel
horn, not a good situation if your link between the two is tight on the
ground.

Ron Wanttaja

"- Barnyard BOb -" wrote in message

translates to aircraft because taildragger pilots EXPECT the plane
to try to
swap ends.

Jim
+++++++++++++++++++++++

TOE IN is a NO-NO for tail draggers.
Just the reverse of cars.


It depends on whether you have a front or rear wheel drive car,
toe-out for front wheel drive and toe-in for rear wheel drive,
generally speaking anyway. Just because I can't think of a car with
something quite different doesn't mean that it isn't the case, just
that I can't think of it.:-))
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)


Read the archives.
This has been beaten to death.
Many times.


Barnyard BOb -

Jerry Springer wrote:

With tight tailwheel springs it is much easier to handle taxing
and takeoffs and landings in a NO WIND condition. But now add some cross wind
and things can get "golly-woppled"** in a hurry with tight springs.

Thanks, BOb and Jerry. Good thing I've got some extra chain
laying around. All I need now is 10 extra hours in a day.

Dave 'anti-wopple chain' Hyde