Katrina fall-out

Peter R. wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:

Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New Orleans --
and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by
Katrina.

Jay, many didn't have the economic means to escape the storm, nor a place
to which to escape. That area is about the poorest part of the US.


This argument is starting to wear a little thin as more information
becomes available. New Orleans and the state of Louisiana had a plan
for evacuating more than a million people from the city, including
providing transportation for up to 300,000 people who had no means of
getting out themselves. Neither the governor nor the mayor (who has
been very quick to blame everyone but himself) chose to implement this
plan, despite the fact they had plenty of warning and all of the needed
resources.

The argument that people are unable to leave also weakens as we get
more and more incidents of people refusing to leave when they are
offered transportation, despite the fact that they are being told that
they will get no more food or water or medical services if they stay.
They won't even leave with armed men telling them in no uncertain terms
that they have to leave.

We also see that a lot of the people who are refusing to leave are
anything but destitute. They are just ignorant and stubborn.

Now, really, it is easy for local officials to blame the federal
government for a weak response, but what were these local officials
doing? It appears that they were doing nothing. City and state
governments are supposed to be the first resort in an emergency. Where
were they? Police were standing by watching looters. Emergency call
centers just let phones ring off the hook.

People who are not Americans may not know this, but federal troops are
actually prohibited from performing law enforcement duties. The federal
government had to get pretty creative with the law in order to get
anything moving in New Orleans and Louisiana. Yet we have a governor in
Louisiana who took days to make up her mind whether she needed federal
help or not.

I don't think most people are fooled by the usual idiot media reporting
of federal incompetence. The next local elections in Louisiana may show
a real backlash, if a recall movement or even impeachment proceedings
are not organized before then.

Keep in mind Martin lives in a socialize European state. So his
experience with social programs is vastly different than those found in
the United States.

I don't think most people are fooled by the usual idiot media reporting
of federal incompetence. The next local elections in Louisiana may show
a real backlash, if a recall movement or even impeachment proceedings
are not organized before then.

Except that FEMA is proving itself to be lead by incompetent and inept
individuals. The military is proving to be the primary source of
organized relief.

"cjcampbell" wrote in message
oups.com...

Peter R. wrote:
Jay Honeck wrote:

Why the hell were they there? Everyone in America knew that New
Orleans --
and everything for 100 miles on each side -- was about to be blasted by
Katrina.

Jay, many didn't have the economic means to escape the storm, nor a place
to which to escape. That area is about the poorest part of the US.

This argument is starting to wear a little thin as more information
becomes available. New Orleans and the state of Louisiana had a plan
for evacuating more than a million people from the city, including
providing transportation for up to 300,000 people who had no means of
getting out themselves. Neither the governor nor the mayor (who has
been very quick to blame everyone but himself) chose to implement this
plan, despite the fact they had plenty of warning and all of the needed
resources.

If that turns out to be the case, then the mayor and governor are certainly
among those at fault. But the above point still stands: whichever officials
may have screwed up, it's still the case that thousands of people were stuck
with no means of evacuation.

The argument that people are unable to leave also weakens as we get
more and more incidents of people refusing to leave when they are
offered transportation, despite the fact that they are being told that
they will get no more food or water or medical services if they stay.

There have certainly been reports of such refusals now that the National
Guard is on the scene. I can't tell yet how widespread it is. Anecdotally,
though, the people staying put seem largely to be home owners who don't want
to abandon their (well-stocked) homes, and thus are largely distinct from
the stranded population that urgently needed prompt rescue. (Whether the
holdouts will need rescue in a few weeks remains to be seen.)

--Gary

However, the cretins that have been
looting, raping, and shooting at rescuers represent the end product of a
failed culture that has been propped up by an endless stream of tax
dollars,
in hopes that the inner city problems won't spread to the "nice"
neighborhoods.

What is your solution (not right now during rescue, but in general)?

Well, we're drifting farther and farther afield from aviation, but I'll take
a whack at this.

There are simply no easy solutions to the problems caused by a culture that:

- Humiliates those who excel academically...
- Accepts and encourages very early, single-parent child-bearing...
- Expects males to play little or no role in child rearing...
- Has no social sanctions against absentee fathers...
- Regards working 9 to 5 for "chump change" as "selling out to the Man"
- Expects the Federal Government to fulfill every basic need...
- Sees authority figures as the enemy...
- Views the sale of drugs as an acceptable economic alternative...
- Accepts violence as a normal way to solve disputes...

Many explain away the development of the under-class culture as being a
"relic from the days of slavery" -- but this doesn't explain the growing
Latino and white aspects of this culture. There is far more going on here
than simply the collapse of black society.

For most of us, the inner city is a bizarro world where up is down, left is
right, smart is dumb, and hard work is viewed as silly -- but for a huge
(and growing) percentage of our inner-city population, it is just "life."
And, as we've seen in the aftermath of Katrina, it has produced a violent
and corrosive subculture that scares the bejeesus out of people when it's
exposed.

This whole phenomenon is so hard to understand -- God knows I've tried.
I've sat down with black friends who have "made it out" and asked them to
explain the ideals and values of the inner city to me in a way that makes
logical sense -- and they are every bit as frustrated -- no, MORE
frustrated -- by it than I am. Because, in short, there *is* no logic to
it -- especially to those who are trapped in it. It's just an immediate
gratification, get-through-the-day way of life that is made possible by
oodles of tax support we now call "entitlements," which have allowed the
development of a culture that no longer sanctions unproductive behavior.
Over time, this has created a generational expectation and acceptance of
personal behaviors that most people would regard as self-destructive.

Fact: Early, single childbirth is the single highest behavioral correlation
with poverty.
Fact: Dropping out of high school correlates strongly with poverty and
crime.
Fact: Violence as a way of solving disputes often leads to prison.

Eliminate these three problems, and you've largely eliminated the underclass
in America. No cash, no entitlements required -- just a cultural sea
change.

But there are historic solutions.

Take, for example, the Jews. For centuries, one of the most hated minority
groups in the world, they came to dominate finance and many Fortune 500
businesses in America. By every measure, they have "made it out" by
literally believing the mirror-image of every under-class belief I've
outlined, above. They did it by banding together for mutual support, by
selling and buying only from other Jewish-owned and operated businesses, and
by making sure that their children received a terrific education. They
overcame incredible obstacles of prejudice, language and distance by coming
together, rather than ripping apart, as our inner cities continually do.

I'm afraid solutions are going to take more than Bill Cosby pointing out the
obvious. After all, how do you change the attitudes of an entire culture?

It's going to take a complete -- and painful -- reassessment of our "Great
Society" entitlement programs. We simply can't continue to provide the
financial support that is enabling an entire segment of our population to
self-destruct. It is morally and (from the standpoint of national survival)
logically wrong to reward self-destructive behavior.

Worse, although in the short term throwing money at the issue "makes the
problems go away" so that polite society can get on with their lives --
after all, they're only killing each other, right? -- it has created a
growing problem that cannot end well. We simply must face this issue and
deal with it as a society, sooner than later, rather than meekly continuing
to accept the Left's failed approach to the problem.

And: what have you done in your former job except stepping _over_ the
bodies not knowing if dead or high on drugs or whatnot?

I survived. That was the best I could hope for at the time.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

However, the cretins that have been
looting, raping, and shooting at rescuers represent the end product of a
failed culture that has been propped up by an endless stream of tax
dollars,
in hopes that the inner city problems won't spread to the "nice"
neighborhoods.

What is your solution (not right now during rescue, but in general)?

Well, we're drifting farther and farther afield from aviation, but I'll
take a whack at this.

There are simply no easy solutions to the problems caused by a culture
that:

- Humiliates those who excel academically...
- Accepts and encourages very early, single-parent child-bearing...
- Expects males to play little or no role in child rearing...
- Has no social sanctions against absentee fathers...
- Regards working 9 to 5 for "chump change" as "selling out to the Man"
- Expects the Federal Government to fulfill every basic need...
- Sees authority figures as the enemy...
- Views the sale of drugs as an acceptable economic alternative...
- Accepts violence as a normal way to solve disputes...

Many explain away the development of the under-class culture as being a
"relic from the days of slavery" -- but this doesn't explain the growing
Latino and white aspects of this culture. There is far more going on
here than simply the collapse of black society.

For most of us, the inner city is a bizarro world where up is down, left
is right, smart is dumb, and hard work is viewed as silly -- but for a
huge (and growing) percentage of our inner-city population, it is just
"life." And, as we've seen in the aftermath of Katrina, it has produced a
violent and corrosive subculture that scares the bejeesus out of people
when it's exposed.

This whole phenomenon is so hard to understand -- God knows I've tried.
I've sat down with black friends who have "made it out" and asked them to
explain the ideals and values of the inner city to me in a way that makes
logical sense -- and they are every bit as frustrated -- no, MORE
frustrated -- by it than I am. Because, in short, there *is* no logic to
it -- especially to those who are trapped in it. It's just an immediate
gratification, get-through-the-day way of life that is made possible by
oodles of tax support we now call "entitlements," which have allowed the
development of a culture that no longer sanctions unproductive behavior.
Over time, this has created a generational expectation and acceptance of
personal behaviors that most people would regard as self-destructive.

Fact: Early, single childbirth is the single highest behavioral
correlation with poverty.
Fact: Dropping out of high school correlates strongly with poverty and
crime.
Fact: Violence as a way of solving disputes often leads to prison.

Eliminate these three problems, and you've largely eliminated the
underclass
in America. No cash, no entitlements required -- just a cultural sea
change.

But there are historic solutions.

Take, for example, the Jews. For centuries, one of the most hated
minority groups in the world, they came to dominate finance and many
Fortune 500
businesses in America. By every measure, they have "made it out" by
literally believing the mirror-image of every under-class belief I've
outlined, above. They did it by banding together for mutual support, by
selling and buying only from other Jewish-owned and operated businesses,
and
by making sure that their children received a terrific education. They
overcame incredible obstacles of prejudice, language and distance by
coming together, rather than ripping apart, as our inner cities
continually do.

I'm afraid solutions are going to take more than Bill Cosby pointing out
the
obvious. After all, how do you change the attitudes of an entire culture?

It's going to take a complete -- and painful -- reassessment of our "Great
Society" entitlement programs. We simply can't continue to provide the
financial support that is enabling an entire segment of our population to
self-destruct. It is morally and (from the standpoint of national
survival) logically wrong to reward self-destructive behavior.

Worse, although in the short term throwing money at the issue "makes the
problems go away" so that polite society can get on with their lives --
after all, they're only killing each other, right? -- it has created a
growing problem that cannot end well. We simply must face this issue and
deal with it as a society, sooner than later, rather than meekly
continuing to accept the Left's failed approach to the problem.

And: what have you done in your former job except stepping _over_ the
bodies not knowing if dead or high on drugs or whatnot?

I survived. That was the best I could hope for at the time.


Well put, Jay. We've thrown trillions at the problem and the problem
persists. Money is not the answer.


--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

"gregg" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:


Worse, although in the short term throwing money at the issue "makes the
problems go away" so that polite society can get on with their lives --
after all, they're only killing each other, right? -- it has created a
growing problem that cannot end well. We simply must face this issue and
deal with it as a society, sooner than later, rather than meekly
continuing to accept the Left's failed approach to the problem.
Very reminiscent of the Palistinians and other in the Middle East that won't
face up to their problems, instead blame others most noticably Israel.


Well put, Jay. We've thrown trillions at the problem and the problem
persists. Money is not the answer.

Persists? Try "has been exacerbated". Thomas Sowell has done a ton of work
and published copious materials on how progress for blacks has been stunted
since their progress peaked in the late 1950's.

Tom S. (No...not Sowell)

"JH" == Jay Honeck writes:

That, and no demonstration of any empathy for anyone, not in
the current disaster, not in the past. You are a sad creature.

JH Please. Try to keep up with the topic. We're not talking
JH about the true victims of the hurricane or the flooding here
JH -- those people deserve and have received our empathy and
JH support.

Why, Jay? You with all your tremendous wisdom and experience have
already told us that all the poor have a POS car and they should have
simply driven out of harm's way.

Stay on topic? You remind me of the marxists I used to argue with
when I was living in a huge latin american city years ago. As soon as
I would counter them on one topic they would simply change subjects.

This topic is about Katrina's fall-out. See the Subject: line?
You're trying to move it to some neocon theory of inner city poverty,
a subject you know everything about because you seemed to have
collected money from welfare people for years. Given your obvious
ignorance about most every other non-aviation subject written about in
this group, your knowledge and opinions are screwed up and
bass-ackwards. Want to try lecturing us some more about flood return
periods?

"gregg" wrote in message
...
Well put, Jay. We've thrown trillions at the problem and the problem
persists. Money is not the answer.

Not only is government money not the answer it inflates most of the
problems. But it gets votes for the politicians that divert money from
beneficial programs to welfare programs. If some of the welfare money had
been earmarked for strengthening the levees around NO we might not be
discussing any of this.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

Matt Whiting wrote:

What a coward.

Coming from the man who killfiled me over the few extra blank lines in my
signature.

--
Peter
























----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----