Video on contest safety

Speaking of legislating safety, I watched this excellent and gut wrenching documentary about Formula 1 on Amazon Prime last night.

"Set in the golden era of Grand Prix Racing '1' tells the story of a generation of charismatic drivers who raced on the edge, risking their lives during Formula 1's deadliest period, and the men who stood up and changed the sport forever."

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2518788/?...fjXd5W-l7tXc3M

Of course, our racing is purely for self gratification, not international fame, money and groupies :-)

5Z

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 9:30:32 PM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
Given the controversy over hard deck, it is unlikely to happen in the US, at least until the IGC puts it in under pressure from the Germans and the "fly IGC rules" crowd faces an interesting conundrum.

The video had lots of other good ideas for breaking up gaggles. Some of them sounded too complicated to me, or have perverse incentives -- extra points for being the leader for example.

Two that did sound useful are 1) the PEV 10 minute rule and 2) using the start-finish height difference rather than fixed start height and finish gate.

There have been PEV rules before, where you had to hit the PEV to designate a "real" start. This allowed top pilots to fake a start and shake off the gaggle. That hasn't caught on, I think in part because doing fake starts is a PITA. Hitting PEV to say "I want to start 10 minutes from now", with maybe a 5 minute window after that (or penalites) sounds interesting. What could go wrong?

The proposal that your finish height is, say 3000' lower than your start height has been around for a while. I didn't see the advantage, but now I do. Trying to get the exact top of the cylinder takes a lot of work. If you just finish 500 feet lower, you can start in a more relaxed way. That also makes it easier to designate your start 10 minutes ahead of time . Otherwise you hit PEV and of course instantly the thermal you're in dissipates.

These seem worth talking about and won't offend pilots who like to win by being willing to go lower than anyone else. '

John Cochrane BB

I'm new to soaring and haven't learned all the rules with regard to racing or contest flying yet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we already have a requirement for official record attempts that the finish altitude needs to be within a certain altitude of the start altitude? If so, then why not adopt this in the racing/contest scene?

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 11:23:20 AM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
The fact that 99.99% of US contest pilots detest the idea is a larger impediment, but somehow Germans seem less opposed.

Here's hoping that this thread splits in two: ranting about the hard deck and a separate reasoned discussion of the other ideas in the video.

By the way, John, the video was made by an Austrian, not a German.

Pat

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 2:47:09 AM UTC-4, John Foster wrote:
On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 9:30:32 PM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
Given the controversy over hard deck, it is unlikely to happen in the US, at least until the IGC puts it in under pressure from the Germans and the "fly IGC rules" crowd faces an interesting conundrum.

The video had lots of other good ideas for breaking up gaggles. Some of them sounded too complicated to me, or have perverse incentives -- extra points for being the leader for example.

Two that did sound useful are 1) the PEV 10 minute rule and 2) using the start-finish height difference rather than fixed start height and finish gate.

There have been PEV rules before, where you had to hit the PEV to designate a "real" start. This allowed top pilots to fake a start and shake off the gaggle. That hasn't caught on, I think in part because doing fake starts is a PITA. Hitting PEV to say "I want to start 10 minutes from now", with maybe a 5 minute window after that (or penalites) sounds interesting. What could go wrong?

The proposal that your finish height is, say 3000' lower than your start height has been around for a while. I didn't see the advantage, but now I do. Trying to get the exact top of the cylinder takes a lot of work. If you just finish 500 feet lower, you can start in a more relaxed way. That also makes it easier to designate your start 10 minutes ahead of time . Otherwise you hit PEV and of course instantly the thermal you're in dissipates.

These seem worth talking about and won't offend pilots who like to win by being willing to go lower than anyone else. '

John Cochrane BB

I'm new to soaring and haven't learned all the rules with regard to racing or contest flying yet. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we already have a requirement for official record attempts that the finish altitude needs to be within a certain altitude of the start altitude? If so, then why not adopt this in the racing/contest scene?

We have that now. Task setter sets the start height and finish height. It just is not a fixed number like badges and records.
UH

Here’s a thought to prevent leaching...........why not bring back the stare time interval? It was originally based on the amount of time it would take for a contestant to sneak out and take a photo of the first turn point and then return for his start with the first turn point in the box, right? This all went away with GPS tracking!
How about bringing it back, but now you must go on course within your STI? Wouldn’t this force the gaggle to break up and head out? You could wait for the gaggle to depart, but your clock would start at your STI.
Just thinking out loud,
JJ

The Gaggle problem and Leeching issue is not not going away, no matter what..
Gaggles form up because pilots are joining up in the best lift in the area with the best pilots; what do we expect pilots to do? Leave the best guys and thermals to go off on there own? Not gonna happen. Luckily Flarm has really helped with the mid air gaggle issue, it works!
We owe B4 a
Big
Thank you for making this mandatory early on in his meets when there were na-sayers out there
Thank You Bruno Vassel!!

Leeching has been happening since the first two gliders got together under a cloudstreet and is also not going anywhere. Under any conditions, I see Karl Streideck or Tim Taylor or Dave Leonard head out in front of me I'm probably going to follow, they are simply smarter than me. And its more fun to fly with your friends, thats why I go to contests, to fly with my friends..
The above "Problems" are due too human nature. We want to stay up to start with and go faster and further, groups obviously do both better.

You don't need to be a Rocket Scientist to figure that out.
Fly Safe in 2020
Nick
well known to gaggle and leech with the best of 'em
T

Leeching may have been around since the beginning of soaring. I haven't been but I was around when people started complaining loudly about it in the 70s. I think it got to be especially bad because of three things:

1. The Byars & Holbrook Soaring Symposia and books/articles by Moffat and Reichmann had made flying fast comprehensible to the average pilot. The mystery was gone. The rest of us may not have been able to execute as well as the top pilots but we understood how they were doing it.

2. The composite revolution in sailplanes made essentially identically performing high-performance gliders widely available to a larger number of pilots. When you had to own a Sisu to have a reasonable chance of winning, that was difficult: there were less than a dozen and they cost a small fortune. And you had to know how to tune and fettle with one to extract the most performance. But the Libelle 301 and the first generation of Standard Class gliders such as the Standard Cirrus, ASW 15, and Libelle 201 made it far easier for the average pilot to stay with the top ones.

3. At the time, national contests often filled up. So it was important to be ranked high enough to gain entry. The straightforward way was Category 1 status; i.e., top ten in one of the three previous nationals. That's a joke now when entire national fields can be less than 10 but it was a big deal then. And the easiest (maybe the only) way for good but not-quite-the-best pilots to make it into the top ten was by leeching Karl Striedieck, George Moffat, Ben Greene, or one of the handful of guys you knew were going to win.

It stayed that way for a long time. I still recall the swings of emotion I had when KS rolled in with me out on course in the early 90s. "Wow, Karl is using my thermal!" And then, "Watch out! There are ten other guys following him who don't even see me."

Leeching and big gaggles are not quite the same thing. Leeching means following another pilot mindlessly, even when they get lost. Gaggling can mean using markers ahead to find thermals, flying with other good pilots who share the work of leading out and spreading out to find the best life, or--leeching.

The only contest of any size I've flown recently was Nephi in 2016 where we had three classes--and that also filled up. I don't recall leeching or gaggling being as much of a problem then. I have read and listened to accounts about recent world championships, however, that indicate both are problems there, not just for scoring but for safety. So, yeah, it would be good to find a way to reduce their popularity--without adding a lot of complication and, frankly, making competitive soaring even less attractive to the average pilot than it is now. Because let's be honest: there are very few contests in the U.S. where more competitors wouldn't be welcomed eagerly by the organizers and many competitors as long as they are safe.

Chip Bearden
JB

Spoken like a dedicated leach, Nick, but our championships are held to determine the best pilot, not to provide enjoyable cruising with your buddies!
JJ

JJ
Point well taken.
But, But, But remember you take the 90% of participants out of the Nationals that don't have a ice cubes chance in hell of winning and you you got no Nationals, were the ones paying those pesky bills with our entry fees and tow charges.
Just sayin!
Sign me:
Enjoyably cruising with my friends
Peace brother, glad to see your still sucking air!

Here's a crazy thought ,I'm sure I'll be burned at the stake for heresy though . Remove or cover the contest letters , leeches will not know who there following except for the distinction in models/make.

In the past past they were a necessity for spotters but now are they really necessary?