27 crash at Ely?

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 10:17:55 AM UTC-4, Hightime wrote:
Not a physical hammer
But a firm and quick response with ones foot to overcome running out of aileron

This instructor observes that the universal tendency among pilots new to mountain flying is to over rudder (skid) turns when close to terrain and flying with a tailwind component. That's a dangerous practice that needs to be guarded against. What you are advocating seems to run counter to this.

T8

When the mountain gods hammer your wing down or up , full aileron deflection (coordinated) is just not enough , at this point forget the yaw string for a second , but switch gears to getting the wing back where you want it , by quickly using the secondary effect of rudder get the wing back under control and when things are looking good go back to coordinated flight

On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 7:18:33 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

The situation we've been discussing is thermalling close to a mountain because
that's where the thermals are, with the intent of getting above the ridge and
thermalling higher.


Does this happen often because the tops of the ridges in UT are higher than the typical aerotow?

Are SW USA slopes steeper than NE USA slopes and would the thermals put you closer to terrain?


According to an early post the accident happened on top of the ridge

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 1:08:32 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
...It is thought by another pilot that he was thermalling just above the ridge top and got blown to the lee (east) side of it and attempted to glide across to the windward side unsuccessfully.

I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.

son_of_flubber wrote on 7/22/2020 10:03 AM:
On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 7:18:33 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:

The situation we've been discussing is thermalling close to a mountain because
that's where the thermals are, with the intent of getting above the ridge and
thermalling higher.


Does this happen often because the tops of the ridges in UT are higher than the typical aerotow?

Are SW USA slopes steeper than NE USA slopes and would the thermals put you closer to terrain?


According to an early post the accident happened on top of the ridge

On Monday, July 13, 2020 at 1:08:32 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
...It is thought by another pilot that he was thermalling just above the ridge top and got blown to the lee (east) side of it and attempted to glide across to the windward side unsuccessfully.

Generally, the ridges are a lot higher than an aerotow. Take look at a sectional
for places like Minden, NV, Ely, NV, Parowan, UT, Nephi, UT. TAke a look at how
steep the mountains are, but I'd say the big difference is the smaller ridges
sticking out from the main ridge, so you don't get a relatively uniform sheet of
air flowing over the main ridge. The thermals often form in the "bowls" between
these minor ridges, so a circle is close to rocks over more of it's circumference.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 8:26:16 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 10:17:55 AM UTC-4, Hightime wrote:
Not a physical hammer
But a firm and quick response with ones foot to overcome running out of aileron

This instructor observes that the universal tendency among pilots new to mountain flying is to over rudder (skid) turns when close to terrain and flying with a tailwind component. That's a dangerous practice that needs to be guarded against. What you are advocating seems to run counter to this.

T8

Right - it will result in severe uncoordinated flight and could result in a spin (not good with rocks near). If you do not have control authority to counter external forces I would think that you are best off going with the flow and figuring out another maneuver that uses these forces. Vital to all of this is having the clearance to do such a maneuver.

Tom

A vortex can produce a shear of twice the wind aloft in something like 2-3 seconds. The axis can be vertical, horizontal or anywhere in between.

I remember pulling my 27 into a thermal at about 50 kt while moving to flap 3 - and getting spat out inverted on a 30±° downline in a blink of an eye. Lost 800'.

6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 3:29 PM:
On Wednesday, July 22, 2020 at 3:03:12 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
6PK wrote on 7/22/2020 10:54 AM:
I share this opinion. BTW the main rules are; keep the speed up (so you won't run out of ailron) and stay coordinated.


"Keep the speed up" isn't a rule, it's just encouragement. How can a pilot
determine the flying speed is fast enough? I don't fly faster just because I'm
circling near the slope of a ridge, or mountain face; generally, I think I fly
fast enough to handle the turbulence easily. Coupled with that is moving farther
from the rocks the bumpier the air is. So far, that's worked, but I have no idea
how to put that fuzzy advice into something another pilot can use.

And, I'm sure the speed and distance depends a lot on the type of glider, in
addition to pilot skill, but I can't even tell someone how far I am from the rocks
- no way to measure, so it's just guessing if I mention a number, and the other
pilot is just guessing, too, when he tries to stay that far away.

Maybe I'm just lucky, because I've never experienced the loss of roll control for
more than, say, 20 degrees. Or maybe I scare easily enough, that I've always given
myself enough airspeed and distance. How do I tell the difference between luck and
good piloting?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Not keeping the speed up; and I mean 5-10kn over smooth air and terrain depending how rough it maybe. It's way too easy too lose control in slow speeds and even stall in rough air. Being close to the rocks is a personal choice, some feel more comfortable being closer than others and that is just the way it is, there is no hard rules in regards to that. Obviously stay far enough to be out of trouble. "Hammering the rudder" is absurd and is asking for an inadvertent spin which BTW I'm sure the cause many of lives lost near terrain.

My understanding is the advice applied to a glider that is flying - not stalled -
but not fast enough to generate roll greater than the excess lift under one wing.
Full rudder would help the other wing develop more lift.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1