First glider Nimbus 2 ?

piÄ…tek, 1 stycznia 2021 oÂ*20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisaÅ‚(a):
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
Hi Surge
I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
Hi piotrm
I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
What I would add is:

Rigging:
Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.

Take off:
Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.

Landing:
Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.

Aerotow:
She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
Hi Surge
thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.

Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?

Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?

From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.

best regards
Piotr
Hi Piotr,

Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.

Tom


Hi Tom

thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:

1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)

2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc

3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.

and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is. I guess that explains a lot

best regards
Piotr

isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ?

Smaller, but probably not much smaller. And to become the pilot you want to be, you'll need to get comfortable with outlandings.


there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.

Yes, much of Poland is very glider-friendly (when crops aren't tall). But after outlanding you have the challenge of de-rigging the Nimbus. For many pilots, that can lead to "Sure, it's a nice day: probably 300+ km. But just a little uncertain. Best not to fly away from home and risk the chance of outlanding."

Sula wrote on 1/3/2021 7:18 AM:
isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ?

Smaller, but probably not much smaller. And to become the pilot you want to be, you'll need to get comfortable with outlandings.

The risk of landing out is determined by the pilot's choices, not the glide ratio. You can fly
a 30:1 glider to the same landout risk as a 50:1 glider, but the 50:1 glider will allow you to
roam over a bigger area for the same risk.


there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.

Yes, much of Poland is very glider-friendly (when crops aren't tall). But after outlanding you have the challenge of de-rigging the Nimbus. For many pilots, that can lead to "Sure, it's a nice day: probably 300+ km. But just a little uncertain. Best not to fly away from home and risk the chance of outlanding."

As John points out, a large, heavy 50:1 glider that is difficult to retrieve can lead to less
flying, or flying in an area similar to a small, light 30:1 glider that is easy to retrieve.

If you can keep the glider assembled all the time so you can void the lengthy chore of rigging,
if you have a good trailer, and if you have many club members ready and willing to retrieve
you, the Nimbus 2 might be a good choice.

--
Eric Greenwell

On 1/3/21 8:39 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Sula wrote on 1/3/2021 7:18 AM:
isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5
m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ?

Smaller, but probably not much smaller.Â* And to become the pilot you
want to be, you'll need to get comfortable with outlandings.

The risk of landing out is determined by the pilot's choices, not the
glide ratio. You can fly a 30:1 glider to the same landout risk as a
50:1 glider, but the 50:1 glider will allow you to roam over a bigger
area for the same risk.


Â* there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.

Yes, much of Poland is very glider-friendly (when crops aren't tall).
But after outlanding you have the challenge of de-rigging the Nimbus.
For many pilots, that can lead to "Sure, it's a nice day: probably
300+ km.Â* But just a little uncertain. Best not to fly away from home
and risk the chance of outlanding."

As John points out, a large, heavy 50:1 glider that is difficult to
retrieve can lead to less flying, or flying in an area similar to a
small, light 30:1 glider that is easy to retrieve.

If you can keep the glider assembled all the time so you can void the
lengthy chore of rigging, if you have a good trailer, and if you have
many club members ready and willing to retrieve you, the Nimbus 2 might
be a good choice.


Hello Piotr,

Allow me to give advice from a different perspective than those who only
tell you things designed to discourage you from the Nimbus. Having read
your questions and your description of your approach to higher
performance machinery, I would advise you to get the Nimbus with only
one caution: Know yourself and listen to your instructor.

Flying safely and enjoying it depend upon two things: Attitude and
Aptitude. I can see that you have the right attitude. Do you have the
aptitude? You should know and I'm sure your instructors and fellow
pilots will tell you, as well.

Don't worry about friends not coming to your aid because you have heavy
wings. They will come. Likewise, don't reject a glider that you want
because it doesn't have the best possible trailer. Again, they will
come. We are in this sport together and we help each other. Some of
the best memories come from retrieves.

Buy the glider if it is what you want. Fly it conservatively and extend
your wings as your experience and confidence grow. As long as you have
the aptitude and keep the attitude, you won't regret it.

--
Dan
5J

I would ask "why?" an original model Nimbus 2 rather than "why not?". I can't think of any logical reason to recommend a less experienced pilot to choose one of those nowadays. If you really really want a Nimbus 2 I would look for a Nimbus 2C. It looks the same but is really a very different and much superior glider with a fixed tailplane, much lighter carbon fibre wings, a higher maximum ballasted weight, superb trailing edge brakes and a very low landing speed. I would say that the one I had in the 80s was the easiest glider to put in a small field that I have ever flown. I also rigged it on my own every flying day.

As an aside, be extremely careful about checking all those Hotelier connections before flight.


On Sunday, 3 January 2021 at 17:02:27 UTC, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 1/3/21 8:39 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Sula wrote on 1/3/2021 7:18 AM:
isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5
m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ?

Smaller, but probably not much smaller. And to become the pilot you
want to be, you'll need to get comfortable with outlandings.

The risk of landing out is determined by the pilot's choices, not the
glide ratio. You can fly a 30:1 glider to the same landout risk as a
50:1 glider, but the 50:1 glider will allow you to roam over a bigger
area for the same risk.


there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.

Yes, much of Poland is very glider-friendly (when crops aren't tall).
But after outlanding you have the challenge of de-rigging the Nimbus.
For many pilots, that can lead to "Sure, it's a nice day: probably
300+ km. But just a little uncertain. Best not to fly away from home
and risk the chance of outlanding."

As John points out, a large, heavy 50:1 glider that is difficult to
retrieve can lead to less flying, or flying in an area similar to a
small, light 30:1 glider that is easy to retrieve.

If you can keep the glider assembled all the time so you can void the
lengthy chore of rigging, if you have a good trailer, and if you have
many club members ready and willing to retrieve you, the Nimbus 2 might
be a good choice.

Hello Piotr,

Allow me to give advice from a different perspective than those who only
tell you things designed to discourage you from the Nimbus. Having read
your questions and your description of your approach to higher
performance machinery, I would advise you to get the Nimbus with only
one caution: Know yourself and listen to your instructor.

Flying safely and enjoying it depend upon two things: Attitude and
Aptitude. I can see that you have the right attitude. Do you have the
aptitude? You should know and I'm sure your instructors and fellow
pilots will tell you, as well.

Don't worry about friends not coming to your aid because you have heavy
wings. They will come. Likewise, don't reject a glider that you want
because it doesn't have the best possible trailer. Again, they will
come. We are in this sport together and we help each other. Some of
the best memories come from retrieves.

Buy the glider if it is what you want. Fly it conservatively and extend
your wings as your experience and confidence grow. As long as you have
the aptitude and keep the attitude, you won't regret it.

--
Dan
5J

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 4:15:49 AM UTC-8, wrote:
piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisał(a):
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
Hi Surge
I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
Hi piotrm
I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
What I would add is:

Rigging:
Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.

Take off:
Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.

Landing:
Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.

Aerotow:
She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
Hi Surge
thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.

Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?

Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?

From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.

best regards
Piotr
Hi Piotr,

Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.

Tom
Hi Tom

thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:

1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)

2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc

3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.

and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings.... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is.. I guess that explains a lot

best regards
Piotr

Hi Piotr,

As the say, never say never, and that includes landouts. I had my first landout in my ASW19 in a contest when I was forced to fly in a task I would have aborted earlier. The retrieve for an N2C is just going to be more of a pain in the ass than a 15m glider.

The number of flight hours is, at best, a crude estimate of a pilot's ability. Just because another low-time pilot got away with it doesn't mean you will. Also, luck plays a big part. Being conservative and prudent is ALWAYS advised, regardless of hours. Expecting a higher performance glider to save you from pilot mistakes is a fool's errand. I learned so much from flying my ASW19, especially the occasional landout, that it put me in a great position when I transitioned to higher performance gliders. You just can't buy judgment and skills - that comes with experience.

It sounds like you already have your mind made up and are just looking for confirmation. I would tread carefully.

Tom

On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 10:35:58 AM UTC+13, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 4:15:49 AM UTC-8, wrote:
piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 20:14:42 UTC+1 2G napisał(a):
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 4:43:40 AM UTC-8, wrote:
piątek, 1 stycznia 2021 o 09:11:18 UTC+1 Surge napisał(a):
On Tuesday, 29 December 2020 at 22:07:01 UTC+2, wrote:
Hi Surge
I would be happy to learn how you find your decision of buying that Nimbus 5 years ago from the perspective of those 5 years. Do you still own it? I am curious because I am now facing the same dilemma of low time pilot going for Nimbus 2. If you are somewhere out there I would be glad to hear from you:
Hi piotrm
I still own the Nimbus 2 although I haven't flown it that much due to life and work getting in the way. I'm still happy with the glider. My cautions would mainly be around ground handling and aerotow (I haven't winched it yet). I provided a general update in 2018 if you missed it. You're welcome to ask me specific questions otherwise.
What I would add is:

Rigging:
Try to keep it hangared if possible - I would not recommend rigging it every weekend unless you're young and fit and have time on your hands.. I keep mine hangared with the tips off (GA size T hangar) but even that is a bit of a pain since I'm quite particular regarding cleaning and re-greasing all the pins, sockets and L'Hotellier aileron connections at the tip mounting point every time I fly it. These parts are exposed to dirt every time the wing tips are removed. However it is not a difficult chore and I do everything myself using a DIY one man, wing rigger. Total time to rig, clean, DI and tow to the launch point is about 2 hours. Cleaning and rigging the wing tips takes me about an hour.

Take off:
Make sure you start the take off role with full negative flaps to obtain aileron authority early.
When flying empty be ready for the glider to leap off the deck when shifting gently to +4 degrees flaps. Even with trim almost fully forward and my CofG fore of centre, she likes to get airborne very quickly. I'm sure it would not be so when using water ballast but I haven't flown with ballast yet.

Landing:
Go to full negative flaps during roll out else aileron authority degrades very rapidly. I almost ground looped once because I forgot to use negative flaps during roll out and there was a light tail wind.
Don't forget to use landing flaps - they add a significant amount of drag and lift compared with +6 degrees. I landed with approach flaps once (+4 degrees) and I ended up using about 450 meters of runway before I came to a stop - lots of energy to dissipate.

Aerotow:
She's slippery so it's quite easy to get slack in the tow rope in turbulent air even in low tow position with +6 degrees flap. Be ready to use the airbrakes to prevent rope slack.
Hi Surge
thanks for your reply I really apprecite it as I am getting closer and closer to making a final decision about the purchase. I am glad to see that you do not regret your decision, still enjoy the glider and in general I find your words quite reasurring. I am also relieved to see that you did not experience any particularly dangerous situation (except that near ground loop landing maybe). My ultimate aim is exactly the same as you descrbied it starting this thread: medium distance relaxed cross conutry 300-500 km rather than blasting around 200 km/h and fighting in competitions. As for the storage I am also planning to keep her in a hangar, so handling issue should not be much of a problem. Some dust covers are included in the package and that may help to protect pins and sockets from the dirt.

Perhaps one of my biggest concerns are outlandings. Since I am inexperienced (70 hours on gliders, 100 hours on powered planes) I am not planning oulandings any time soon and I guess having 3 airfields almost within the distance of Nimbus2 49 L/D I don't run much risk of a casulal landing. Even if I happend to have one, the area of Poland where I live is covered with large, smooth fields.
Is landing roll really significantly longer than a "regular" club 15-meter like Astir for example? (assuming that landing procedure is executed fawlessly)
Have you ever tried to use tail parachute on landing?

Did you find anything worth emphasizing about handling the ship during the thermalling/cruise?

From other advice on Nimbus 2 which I got I assume that challenges of flying a glider of this kind are lying more in mental areas (concentration/focus/discipline) rather than area of pure flying technique. I guess my experience of PPL pilot may help here (flaps adjustments, engine rpm adjusments on landings/take-offs etc).
Do you know any place where I could find Nimbus 2 pilot operating handbook? I was trying to find in the internet but the best what I found was Mini Nimbus POH.

best regards
Piotr
Hi Piotr,

Considering your experience and budget I recommend that you get an ASW19 or a Standard Cirrus. Landing the N2C under normal circumstances is a handful - an outlanding multiplies all of those issues.

Tom
Hi Tom

thanks for reply, each opinion/advice is valuable. I managed to get response from the originator of that thread (Surge) who bought Nimbus 2 having around 50 hours of experience. He still owns that glider, flies her happily and nothing bad happend. What I find to be crucial is risk awareness and "risk management". People who are advising me against the choice of Nimbus point out to potential risks and this is very valuable. People who are advising in favour point out how to avoid the risk. I guess you are probably a glider pilot with a lot of experience so do not feel competent to argue from the position of newbee, but I would be interested to learn what is your opinion on a few conclusions I draw:

1. Many people are warning that outlandigs in Nimbus2 kind of glider are much riskier. But isn't it true, that flying a glider with L/D 50 and sink rate of 0,5 m/s creates much smaller risk of outlanding altogether ? Even from my very limited experience of flying SZD-30 Pirat (L/D 31, sink 0,7m/s) and SZD-51 Junior (L/D 36, sink 0,6m/s) during my SPL training I could see that I was able to stay longer in the air in Junior than in Pirat in the same conditions. I am planning to avoid outlandings anyway during the first 2 years of my "SPL licenced" flying, so I guess that L/D 50 glider should rather help in it? There are a couple of clubs within a distance of 50-70 km from each other in my area so with an average cloud base during the season of c.a. 1500 meters A.G.L. I could assume regular landings on airfields with pretty much certainty, and even in case of an outlanding, there are lots of large agricultural fields in that part of Poland.
Just as Surge, I am not planning to fly in adverse conditions in the beginning (stron winds)

2. Technical difficulties of flying (especially take-offs and landings) - this seems similar to my motorbike experience. Shortly after getting a licence for a motorbike I decided to buy a vintage Ducati Monster 1000cc bike (it was based on high performance racing bike constructed in the 70-ties) which most people warned me against as too dangerous for a beginner and suggested some 600cc with easier handling. I bought Monster however and having all those warnings in the back of my head I drove as safe as possible, avoided speeding etc and nothing bad happened. I have been driving it for a couple of years now and enjoyed it a lot. Paradoxically, it maybe even contributed to improvement of safety of my riding because being aware of higher risks I was seeking advice of more experienced, reading a lot on the biking technique, proper speed/breaking management etc

3. Practical considerations - glider which I am planning to buy is well maintained and has 2300 h to fly to the next service life extension, at the asking price close to that, which most of 15meter club ships have, which are usually sold with between 100 h - 1000 h of flying left until next service life extension.

and besides, I find open gliders just splendid with their slender wings.... Although this subject has probably never been raised in this forum, to me, part of the satisfaction of being an owner of a glider comes from the fact of owning/flying a beautiful work of art, which, I believe, the glider is. I guess that explains a lot

best regards
Piotr
Hi Piotr,

As the say, never say never, and that includes landouts. I had my first landout in my ASW19 in a contest when I was forced to fly in a task I would have aborted earlier. The retrieve for an N2C is just going to be more of a pain in the ass than a 15m glider.

The number of flight hours is, at best, a crude estimate of a pilot's ability. Just because another low-time pilot got away with it doesn't mean you will. Also, luck plays a big part. Being conservative and prudent is ALWAYS advised, regardless of hours. Expecting a higher performance glider to save you from pilot mistakes is a fool's errand. I learned so much from flying my ASW19, especially the occasional landout, that it put me in a great position when I transitioned to higher performance gliders. You just can't buy judgment and skills - that comes with experience.

It sounds like you already have your mind made up and are just looking for confirmation. I would tread carefully.

Tom

I replied poster via email directly but I mentioned several things which I was told by Terry Delores who has done many world records and had a Nimbus 2 for quite a long time
The Nimbus 2 coming across the fence at 48 knots is about right but at 52 knots will take twice the distance to stop. Remember her stall is in the mid 30s
The second major point ,Nimbus 2 has a large wing area, just above and as the fence comes under your nose go to full air brake and the glider will run 10-15 meters then will start
to sag downward , control with elevator in flare , she will land firm but not hard with no tendency to jump back in the air , the energy gets washed off in trying to keep her airborne in the
sag /deeply stalled attitude
Gary

These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.

Le lundi 4 janvier 2021 Ã* 11:30:06 UTC+1, krasw a écritÂ*:
These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else. Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type. You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun. Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls. There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.

I own a N2C since years, and I also fly other gliders (mainly discus 2, duodiscus, ls-4), I fly in Alpine area. I disagree when you say thermalling is not fun with The N2C, actually it is the most fun thing to do! You can litteraly outclimb every other ship, handling is superb, light and precise controls, yes you have to manage your feets and you loose 2 seconds when doing -45/+45 but is it an issue? When flying cross country I am faster than a duodiscus in every aspect. With 200L water, I feel unstoppable.

gregv wrote on 1/4/2021 3:02 AM:
Le lundi 4 janvier 2021 à 11:30:06 UTC+1, krasw a écrit :
These old open class gliders were designed for max LD at quite low speed, nothing else.
Their handling in the air is not good and on the ground it is just awful. You will fly
less because of this. I usually fly modern glider from std. class to 18/20m class. I flew
one summer mostly Std. Cirrus and did enjoy xc flying exactly same as with any other type.
You fly exactly same tactic as with modern glider, only with lower airspeed duirng glider
and taking few more climbs. With a glider like Std. Libelle, thermalling is actually fun.
Saying that thermalling is fun with N2 buys you a ticket to hospital with padded walls.
There is a very good reason N2 is cheap to buy.

I own a N2C since years, and I also fly other gliders (mainly discus 2, duodiscus, ls-4), I
fly in Alpine area. I disagree when you say thermalling is not fun with The N2C, actually it
is the most fun thing to do! You can litteraly outclimb every other ship, handling is
superb, light and precise controls, yes you have to manage your feets and you loose 2
seconds when doing -45/+45 but is it an issue? When flying cross country I am faster than a
duodiscus in every aspect. With 200L water, I feel unstoppable.

The original poster is looking at a N2, not an N2C. Is there a significant difference in the
thermalling and the general handling of the two gliders?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1