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Solar panel controller



 
 
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  #31  
Old January 5th 21, 07:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Solar panel controller

Dan Marotta wrote on 1/5/2021 8:19 AM:
On 1/4/21 6:35 PM, 2G wrote:
On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 3:32:11 PM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 1/4/21 2:22 PM, 2G wrote:
On Monday, January 4, 2021 at 7:41:18 AM UTC-8, Rhubarb wrote:
https://airbatt.de/navi.php?a=9114&lang=eng

Unfortunately they don't ship to countries outside of Europe.

Tom

I have one of these:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

--
Dan
5J

Besides been quite large and unavailable, it is not for use with LFP batteries.

Tom


Oops, I thought the thread was about charge controllers, not about the batteries they're charging.

There ARE MPPT chargers suitable for LiFePO4, however.* They do cost quite a bit more but they
deliver a higher percentage of the energy to the batteries.

For glider use, they may not be worth the extra size, weight, and cost. It depends on the solar
panels, and the ones for gliders are usually chosen to optimize charging of 12 volt batteries
with PWM charge controllers, and using an MPPT controller on those panels will gain little
extra charging.

If the panels could be rewired in series instead of in parallel, the MPPT controller may
improve the charging rate. It's possible the constant changing of panel orientation in flight
may render the MPPT controller ineffective; on the ground it's probably similar to an RV, where
the range is often given at 10%-30% short term improvement, and perhaps as much as 15% average
over a few months use.

I've been researching this issue for my motorhome; currently (little pun there), I'm leaning to
doubling the size of the system as simply and cheaply as possible by duplicating the system it
already has, and paralleling the output from the two PWM controllers to the battery. If actual
usage shows another 15% charging would be worthwhile, I'll replace the PWM controllers with
MPPT units at about $200-$300 additional parts cost. I suspect additional batteries will be a
better way to spend $200, however.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #32  
Old January 5th 21, 07:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Solar panel controller

On 1/5/21 11:41 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
the ones for gliders are usually chosen to optimize charging of 12 volt
batteries with PWM charge controllers, and using an MPPT controller on
those panels will gain little extra charging.


I'd like to see a proof of that...

--
Dan
5J
  #33  
Old January 6th 21, 01:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Solar panel controller

Dan Marotta wrote on 1/5/2021 10:48 AM:
On 1/5/21 11:41 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
the ones for gliders are usually chosen to optimize charging of 12 volt batteries with PWM
charge controllers, and using an MPPT controller on those panels will gain little extra
charging.


I'd like to see a proof of that...

Which statement: glider panels chosen to optimize PWM, or MPPT controller won't help with that
type panel (ie, low voltage output)? In general, though, the big difference is PWM is more
efficient with low voltage panels (like 18 volts), and MPPT is more efficient with higher
voltages (at least 24 volts, 30 is better).

Do you have the specs for your Stemme panels?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #34  
Old January 6th 21, 03:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Solar panel controller

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 4:58:48 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 1/5/2021 10:48 AM:
On 1/5/21 11:41 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
the ones for gliders are usually chosen to optimize charging of 12 volt batteries with PWM
charge controllers, and using an MPPT controller on those panels will gain little extra
charging.


I'd like to see a proof of that...

Which statement: glider panels chosen to optimize PWM, or MPPT controller won't help with that
type panel (ie, low voltage output)? In general, though, the big difference is PWM is more
efficient with low voltage panels (like 18 volts), and MPPT is more efficient with higher
voltages (at least 24 volts, 30 is better).

Do you have the specs for your Stemme panels?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


That doesn't make sense: an MPPT controller IS a PWM power converter, it just optimizes the operating point.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...controller.pdf

The advantages of a higher voltage panel a
1. Lower percentage losses in the MOSFET switch (not much of a factor).
2. Wider operating point to deal with less sunlight.

Tom
  #35  
Old January 6th 21, 05:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Solar panel controller

2G wrote on 1/5/2021 6:52 PM:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 4:58:48 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 1/5/2021 10:48 AM:
On 1/5/21 11:41 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
the ones for gliders are usually chosen to optimize charging of 12 volt batteries with PWM
charge controllers, and using an MPPT controller on those panels will gain little extra
charging.

I'd like to see a proof of that...

Which statement: glider panels chosen to optimize PWM, or MPPT controller won't help with that
type panel (ie, low voltage output)? In general, though, the big difference is PWM is more
efficient with low voltage panels (like 18 volts), and MPPT is more efficient with higher
voltages (at least 24 volts, 30 is better).

Do you have the specs for your Stemme panels?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


That doesn't make sense: an MPPT controller IS a PWM power converter, it just optimizes the operating point.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...controller.pdf

The advantages of a higher voltage panel a
1. Lower percentage losses in the MOSFET switch (not much of a factor).
2. Wider operating point to deal with less sunlight.

Tom



An MPPT charge controller includes a DC-DC converter (called a "buck" converter in the paper
you reference) to convert power at the MPP voltage to the battery voltage needed for charging.
A PWM charge controller, in the context of solar power systems charging batteries does not have
the DC-DC converter. It just switches the panel on and off to the battery - no power conversion.

Here's an example: My motorhome has two 100W panels in parallel, producing about 11 amps
charging in good conditions. If I were to put the panels in series while using the PWM
controller, the system would produce about 5 amps. If instead, I used an MPPT controller on
that same two panels in series, it could produce about 14 amps of charging.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #36  
Old January 7th 21, 12:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Solar panel controller

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:57:17 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 1/5/2021 6:52 PM:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 4:58:48 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 1/5/2021 10:48 AM:
On 1/5/21 11:41 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
the ones for gliders are usually chosen to optimize charging of 12 volt batteries with PWM
charge controllers, and using an MPPT controller on those panels will gain little extra
charging.

I'd like to see a proof of that...

Which statement: glider panels chosen to optimize PWM, or MPPT controller won't help with that
type panel (ie, low voltage output)? In general, though, the big difference is PWM is more
efficient with low voltage panels (like 18 volts), and MPPT is more efficient with higher
voltages (at least 24 volts, 30 is better).

Do you have the specs for your Stemme panels?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


That doesn't make sense: an MPPT controller IS a PWM power converter, it just optimizes the operating point.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...controller.pdf

The advantages of a higher voltage panel a
1. Lower percentage losses in the MOSFET switch (not much of a factor).
2. Wider operating point to deal with less sunlight.

Tom

An MPPT charge controller includes a DC-DC converter (called a "buck" converter in the paper
you reference) to convert power at the MPP voltage to the battery voltage needed for charging.
A PWM charge controller, in the context of solar power systems charging batteries does not have
the DC-DC converter. It just switches the panel on and off to the battery - no power conversion.

Here's an example: My motorhome has two 100W panels in parallel, producing about 11 amps
charging in good conditions. If I were to put the panels in series while using the PWM
controller, the system would produce about 5 amps. If instead, I used an MPPT controller on
that same two panels in series, it could produce about 14 amps of charging.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


A dc-dc converter IS pulse-width modulated (PWM). A series switching MOSFET is turned on and off (pulse-width modulated) to regulate current in an inductor. Here is an excerpt of the article I referenced:

" Then depending upon power level it gives PWM input to buck converter which
decides whether the solar panel is to be connected to battery or not for charging."

Tom
  #37  
Old January 7th 21, 12:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Solar panel controller

2G wrote on 1/6/2021 3:24 PM:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:57:17 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 1/5/2021 6:52 PM:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 4:58:48 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 1/5/2021 10:48 AM:
On 1/5/21 11:41 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
the ones for gliders are usually chosen to optimize charging of 12 volt batteries with PWM
charge controllers, and using an MPPT controller on those panels will gain little extra
charging.

I'd like to see a proof of that...

Which statement: glider panels chosen to optimize PWM, or MPPT controller won't help with that
type panel (ie, low voltage output)? In general, though, the big difference is PWM is more
efficient with low voltage panels (like 18 volts), and MPPT is more efficient with higher
voltages (at least 24 volts, 30 is better).

Do you have the specs for your Stemme panels?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

That doesn't make sense: an MPPT controller IS a PWM power converter, it just optimizes the operating point.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...controller.pdf

The advantages of a higher voltage panel a
1. Lower percentage losses in the MOSFET switch (not much of a factor).
2. Wider operating point to deal with less sunlight.

Tom

An MPPT charge controller includes a DC-DC converter (called a "buck" converter in the paper
you reference) to convert power at the MPP voltage to the battery voltage needed for charging.
A PWM charge controller, in the context of solar power systems charging batteries does not have
the DC-DC converter. It just switches the panel on and off to the battery - no power conversion.

Here's an example: My motorhome has two 100W panels in parallel, producing about 11 amps
charging in good conditions. If I were to put the panels in series while using the PWM
controller, the system would produce about 5 amps. If instead, I used an MPPT controller on
that same two panels in series, it could produce about 14 amps of charging.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


A dc-dc converter IS pulse-width modulated (PWM). A series switching MOSFET is turned on and off (pulse-width modulated) to regulate current in an inductor. Here is an excerpt of the article I referenced:

" Then depending upon power level it gives PWM input to buck converter which
decides whether the solar panel is to be connected to battery or not for charging."

Tom

In the solar battery charging context we are discussing, the label "PWM" refers to controllers
that directly connect the solar panel to the battery with a switch to charge it. When the
switch closes, the panel voltage drops to the battery voltage, so the charging current is
limited to what the panel can put out at the battery's voltage.

The label "MPPT" refers to controllers that have a logic controlled DC to DC converter in them
that allows the controller to adjust the the DC-DC converter to maintain the panel voltage
where the panel is putting out maximum power while DC-DC converter output is at the battery
voltage, and the current is higher than the panel is putting out.

So, in this context, PWM and MPPT refer to significantly different types of controllers, and
it's irrelevant if the DC-DC converter uses pulse width modulation to control the DC-DC
converter. Using the labels as I've described is common industry practice, even in the paper
you referenced.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #38  
Old January 7th 21, 04:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Solar panel controller

On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 at 3:51:57 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 1/6/2021 3:24 PM:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 8:57:17 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 1/5/2021 6:52 PM:
On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 4:58:48 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dan Marotta wrote on 1/5/2021 10:48 AM:
On 1/5/21 11:41 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
the ones for gliders are usually chosen to optimize charging of 12 volt batteries with PWM
charge controllers, and using an MPPT controller on those panels will gain little extra
charging.

I'd like to see a proof of that...

Which statement: glider panels chosen to optimize PWM, or MPPT controller won't help with that
type panel (ie, low voltage output)? In general, though, the big difference is PWM is more
efficient with low voltage panels (like 18 volts), and MPPT is more efficient with higher
voltages (at least 24 volts, 30 is better).

Do you have the specs for your Stemme panels?
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

That doesn't make sense: an MPPT controller IS a PWM power converter, it just optimizes the operating point.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...controller.pdf

The advantages of a higher voltage panel a
1. Lower percentage losses in the MOSFET switch (not much of a factor).
2. Wider operating point to deal with less sunlight.

Tom
An MPPT charge controller includes a DC-DC converter (called a "buck" converter in the paper
you reference) to convert power at the MPP voltage to the battery voltage needed for charging.
A PWM charge controller, in the context of solar power systems charging batteries does not have
the DC-DC converter. It just switches the panel on and off to the battery - no power conversion.

Here's an example: My motorhome has two 100W panels in parallel, producing about 11 amps
charging in good conditions. If I were to put the panels in series while using the PWM
controller, the system would produce about 5 amps. If instead, I used an MPPT controller on
that same two panels in series, it could produce about 14 amps of charging.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


A dc-dc converter IS pulse-width modulated (PWM). A series switching MOSFET is turned on and off (pulse-width modulated) to regulate current in an inductor. Here is an excerpt of the article I referenced:

" Then depending upon power level it gives PWM input to buck converter which
decides whether the solar panel is to be connected to battery or not for charging."

Tom

In the solar battery charging context we are discussing, the label "PWM" refers to controllers
that directly connect the solar panel to the battery with a switch to charge it. When the
switch closes, the panel voltage drops to the battery voltage, so the charging current is
limited to what the panel can put out at the battery's voltage.

The label "MPPT" refers to controllers that have a logic controlled DC to DC converter in them
that allows the controller to adjust the the DC-DC converter to maintain the panel voltage
where the panel is putting out maximum power while DC-DC converter output is at the battery
voltage, and the current is higher than the panel is putting out.

So, in this context, PWM and MPPT refer to significantly different types of controllers, and
it's irrelevant if the DC-DC converter uses pulse width modulation to control the DC-DC
converter. Using the labels as I've described is common industry practice, even in the paper
you referenced.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Ok, but the terminology is a bit confusing as they are both PWM controllers.. This Genasun MPPT controller is widely available and has been recommended on RAS before as a STROBL replacement:

https://www.amazon.com/Genasun-GV-5-.../dp/B01N9BP7VL

Tom
 




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