First glider Nimbus 2 ?

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 1:53:20 PM UTC-8, wrote:
poniedziałek, 11 stycznia 2021 o 10:31:05 UTC+1 napisał(a):
Ultimately, it's still your own decision what you buy, and depending on your skill, your club or CFI might allow it.
I can share an experience in my club that points to the need to control private pilots with low time flying aircraft they are not ready for. This person bought a ASW 20 right after their solo endorsement and nearly killed himself on the flight while we watched in horror. He did a very low energy skidding turn to final and entered a spin about one wingspan from the ground. The plane impacted the ground going sideways. Had he been higher, it would have likely be a fatal accident. He was banned from the club and never got another tow from us. Who a club tows is in their control.

Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot. Most of these older ships have CG hooks that provide little help in directional control. Kiting is also a killer. My club lost a towpilot this last year due to kiting.

BG

Op maandag 11 januari 2021 om 19:42:58 UTC+1 schreef :
40 hours before flying an LS-4?!

It has to be the easiest flying glider I've ever been in. I've heard that some European clubs put students in it for their first single seater.
These are just our club rules, as I said, they have pretty high standards
You are free to leave the club and go somewhere else where they don't have these rules though.

Yes you can buy whatever you like, but if the CFI or other instructors think it is unsafe for a low experience pilot to suddenly fly a flapped glider or open class, you are not allowed to take off.
If you do this on weekdays, you can get banned.

We train new students on 2 ASK13, then after they have 10 solo flights, transition to our 3 ASK8's. When you have 20 hours of solo experience, you can fly the SZD Junior. At 30 hours you can fly our 2 Grob Twin Astirs. At 40 hours and having passed your exams and got your licence, you can fly our 2 LS4's and Pegase. Then after 75 solo hours is our Duo Discus. They are however rebuilding these rules since many clubs around us fly glass as trainer and solo like the G103 Twin Astir and G102 Astir.

Most of our income is from ASK8's though, low cost, all repairs can be done by club members and they fly every day. At a price of 0.08 EUR per minute, it's hard to resist an hour in an ASK8 on a weak day

Anyway, back on topic. If you are allowed to fly a Nimbus as a low hour pilot, consider yourself lucky. Some clubs, like mine, have very weird rules when it comes to private gliders, as we already have so many private pilots. The reason I bought mine is because I don't want to fly an hour only to be called back down because 4 other members want to fly that glider. I wanted to do my own thing and fly as far and long as I wanted. Some wonder why I even bought it in the first place, as I fly my DG 101 less than 30 hours a year. It's just my way of flying and enjoying my hobby. Make sure you like what you're going to do and enjoy it. Everyone enjoys the hobby in a different way.

On Mon, 11 Jan 2021 21:34:49 -0800, BG wrote:

I can share an experience in my club that points to the need to control
private pilots with low time flying aircraft they are not ready for.
This person bought a ASW 20 right after their solo endorsement and
nearly killed himself on the flight while we watched in horror. He did
a very low energy skidding turn to final and entered a spin about one
wingspan from the ground. The plane impacted the ground going sideways.
Had he been higher, it would have likely be a fatal accident. He was
banned from the club and never got another tow from us. Who a club tows
is in their control.

Does your club own any benign single seat gliders, e.g. a 1-26, Ka-8 or
Junior that new solo pilots can transition to?

If not, what guidance or rules does your club have to protect early solo
pilots (and tuggies) from the sort of incident you describe? If nobody
pointed out why buying an ASW-20 was a really bad idea for a new solo,
then banning him sounds rather harsh.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

John Foster wrote:

I may be WAY off-base here, but one thing you may consider, is to get Condor 2 and play around with some of the gliders, particularly the longer wing-span ones like the JS1 and EB29, so you can see how long-winged gliders handle on the ground. I know these are nothing like the Nimbus 2, and in fact, I think the only one that remotely comes close would be the Standard Cirrus with its all-flying tail. Just something to consider. But again, I may be way off here.



Regarding advice given on buying a Nimbus 2 as a first glider: It's
been over 40 years, but I seem to recall a series of partial
differential equations which describe the flight characteristics of an
aircraft.

I wonder, do the developers of Condor have access to these equations for
each aircraft that they model and, if so, how did they get them? Or are
they simply making a guess as to how a particular glider actually performs?

--
Dan
5J

On Saturday, January 9, 2021 at 5:31:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
From yours and others' comments I conclude that in order to stay on the safe side I must give much consideration to flying conditions (no strong cross winds) and landing spots because of long landing roll. Since I am quite determined to refrain myself from any attempts of long distance xc flying in the first or two years (which I would want ta avoid in any type of glider, also 15m), or attempts of flying in strong cross wind, then I guess that with those two factors of danger ruled out (or at least reduced as much as possible) flying Nimbus should to be pretty harmless as you write.

best reg
Piotr

Hi Piotr,

I think I commented on this thread a couple of years back, but just to re-emphasize. If you are not completely comfortable flying and landing the glider in a wide range of conditions, then I think that itself answers your question about whether you are ready. As an instructor, I emphasize with every student that each flight could be an off-field landing. Not just tow emergencies, but mis-judging conditions, getting caught by a sudden weather change, etc. So, while you have the right attitude about wanting to be conservative in your initial cross-country approach, starting with the assumption that you will not land off-field is a bad idea.

Looking at the data from my club (a mid-sized club in the US), we have at least 2-3 off-airport landings each year NOT related to intentional XC flight. One example was a nice, summer day last year. The pilot flying his ASW-24 on a hot summer day was only 15 miles away at 2000M when a set of clouds suddenly turned into a thunderstorm with heavy rain. He ended up getting caught with the storm between him and the airport and had to make a very tricky off-airport landing only a mile away from the home airport. In another example, a pilot flying the "local ridge" ran into weakening conditions and made the conservative choice to land in a big field rather than to try a marginal glide to home.

There's a difference between price and value. Not everything that comes at a low price is a good value. At least think about that before you make the move.

Erik Mann (P3).

BG wrote on 1/11/2021 9:34 PM:
Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot. Most of these older ships have CG hooks that provide little help in directional control. Kiting is also a killer. My club lost a towpilot this last year due to kiting.

My ASW20C came with only a CG hook. After several years, I retrofitted it with a nose hook. The
improvement on takeoff was significant, and it was also better in the air. A very worthwhile
change, I thought, and I had about a 1000 hours at the time.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On 1/12/21 12:02 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BG wrote on 1/11/2021 9:34 PM:
Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot.Â* Most of
these older ships have CG hooks that provide little help in
directional control.Â*Â* Kiting is also a killer.Â* My club lost a
towpilot this last year due to kiting.

My ASW20C came with only a CG hook. After several years, I retrofitted
it with a nose hook. The improvement on takeoff was significant, and it
was also better in the air. A very worthwhile change, I thought, and I
had about a 1000 hours at the time.


Curious - How does fitting a nose hook make a '20 "better in the air"?
Is it because of a larger opening in the nose? I thought the '20 got
its ventilation via NACA scoops under the wings. Am I missing something?

--
Dan
5J

Dan Marotta wrote on 1/12/2021 11:39 AM:
On 1/12/21 12:02 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
BG wrote on 1/11/2021 9:34 PM:
Another issue is the risk you are imposing on the tow pilot.* Most of these older ships have
CG hooks that provide little help in directional control.** Kiting is also a killer.* My
club lost a towpilot this last year due to kiting.

My ASW20C came with only a CG hook. After several years, I retrofitted it with a nose hook.
The improvement on takeoff was significant, and it was also better in the air. A very
worthwhile change, I thought, and I had about a 1000 hours at the time.


Curious - How does fitting a nose hook make a '20 "better in the air"? Is it because of a
larger opening in the nose?* I thought the '20 got its ventilation via NACA scoops under the
wings.* Am I missing something?

"Better in the air" referred to being on tow, off the ground. Once the rope is gone - no change.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Tuesday, January 12, 2021 at 11:08:01 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:

There's a difference between price and value. Not everything that comes at a low price is a good value. At least think about that before you make the move.

Erik Mann (P3).

This is the dilemma I see so often with new glider pilots: finding an affordable first glass ship. It seems the recommendations are always to steer away from the cheaper first generation glass under $10k because they are "tricky to fly", and to leave them for more experienced pilots. The trouble is that flying club ships often limits your hours, as you have to share them with other club members, which takes longer to build up experience. Also, there are many clubs in the US that are on life-support financially, and club ships are often limited to the "venerable" 2-33 or other such low-performance aircraft, and really don't give any valuable experience in preparing towards transitioning to better glass ships. People often have to go out of their way to get experience even in ships like a G103. In today's economy, many new pilots can't cough up $15k to $25k for the "better" glass ships that would be more suitable as a first glass ship, so are forced to look at less expensive options, if they want to continue in the sport/hobby. I really wish more clubs had the resources to adequately transition folks from the low-performance trainers to the higher performance glass ships. Sure there are well-established clubs in locations that have the inventory and resources to do this, but these are getting fewer and farther between (at least in the US). My own experience has reflected this and has been very frustrating at times. I found a Bolkow Phoebus A1 at a very affordable price, and have managed to get it back in flying condition after a long time in a hanger attic. However, I've also been counselled that it is not suitable for a low-time pilot for many of the same reasons mentioned above for the Nimbus 2. The one club I was a member of refused to tow me in my Phoebus until I got checked out in it by an instructor, but the club instructors refused to help me with that, because they didn't have the experience themselves, and the club didn't have any appropriate club gliders that could be used for that. And there are no private members at the club who have private two-seaters that will provide adequate experience to transition into my Phoebus. I have to travel 4hrs or more just to find a club or glider operation in the first place. And then there is only a 2-33 or IS 28B Lark to rent, and am only able to fly for 1hr at the most. Landing out is strongly discouraged, so getting XC experience is basically not available there. The other place is almost 5hr drive. There I have access to a G103, but instructor and tow fees are significantly higher, and I can spent $1500 in 2 days easily. If I'm going to continue in this sport I need to be able to fly more frequently, and for much cheaper. It is difficult to build experience when you can only fly 3-4 times a year for 2-3 hrs at a time. And I know I'm not alone in this. If I were to follow the advise people are giving me about buying a "more suitable" first glass ship, I'd need to step away from soaring for probably 5-10 yrs while I save money to be able to afford one of the "more suitable" gliders.

You may ask "what about a more affordable low-performance glider like a 1-26 or K6 or K8?" The answer is, I want something I can fly cross country in.. Yes, these can be flown cross country, but you will get good at landing out due to their low glide ratio and poor wind penetration. Where I live, there are not a lot of good places to land out, due to small fenced farm fields, and LOTS of forests/mountains. So I would be mostly stuck flying around within gliding range of the airport. I'd get bored with that pretty quickly, wouldn't you?

So, in summary, I feel the OP's and other posters pain. Higher performance gliders under $10,000 are usually unsuitable for low-time glider pilots because they are too much to handle, and lower performance options typically don't have the XC potential of the higher performance options (at least when flying over "tiger country", or in my case, grizzly bear country), and don't offer much in transitioning to higher performance more appropriate options. And unless you have a well-established club with a large fleet/selection of training/transitional gliders, or one flush with capital that can purchase more appropriate XC training gliders, you are SOL (unless you can plop down $15k-$25k) on a more "appropriate" first glass ship. Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

On Tue, 12 Jan 2021 11:53:17 -0800, John Foster wrote:

Sorry for the long-winded reply. Just venting some of my frustrations.

Your situation analysis explains a lot I've wondered about in the US club
scene.

I would suggest looking at a 201 Std Libelle, but in the UK and Europe
they've been getting steadily more expensive for the last ten years.

What about a G.102 Astir? Quite a few belong to UK clubs and/or have been
the first glider bought by pilots over here, are easy to fly and fit the
Standard Class specifications (15m span, glass, some models carry water.

How are their prices and availability on your side of the pond?

Similarly, I like the Pegase 101 a lot, but have no idea about US prices.



--
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Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org