Video on contest safety

A good video on contest safety

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LwWncyUfng

Taken on a blue day when everybody sits in a gaggle until it's too late to get home.

Some of the fixes seem a bit complex and strategic -- points for being the leader. Some seem pretty easy -- assigned start times. And it's interesting that Germans are starting to think about a hard deck (flame suit on).

John Cochrane BB

On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 4:51:16 PM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
A good video on contest safety

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LwWncyUfng

Taken on a blue day when everybody sits in a gaggle until it's too late to get home.

Some of the fixes seem a bit complex and strategic -- points for being the leader. Some seem pretty easy -- assigned start times. And it's interesting that Germans are starting to think about a hard deck (flame suit on).

John Cochrane BB

Event Marker start makes a lot of sense.

How about using two start cylinders, assigned according to grid position - l.e. odd/even. That would introduce enough uncertainty as to minimize leeching. Merging streams on first leg shouldn't be too risky methinks.

I like the PEV. I have used it at several contests now (Polish Nationals and PanAm). There are several variations on how the PEV can be used. One is to push the button x minutes before start, the other is to push the button before crossing the start line and you can't restart for x minutes.

I prefer the later, push the button just before starting. This can work well for getting rid of leeches. You can fake a start and then come back and the leeches are stuck with the earlier start. This technique also works well when you are working a thermal that is on or near the start line. You don't have to worry about accidentally crossing the line until you are ready..

The other techniques of pushing x minutes before has the issue of needing to make a window of x before, but you must start within a certain period of time. Without the window you can just push the button off tow and start at any time later. You also have to careful to not cross the line until you are sure you are ready to go, otherwise you have to wait for the interval again.

At 22:51 14 April 2020, John Cochrane wrote:
A good video on contest safety

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LwWncyUfng

Taken on a blue day when everybody sits in a gaggle until it's too
late to
get home.

Some of the fixes seem a bit complex and strategic -- points for
being the
leader. Some seem pretty easy -- assigned start times. And it's
interesting
that Germans are starting to think about a hard deck (flame suit
on).

John Cochrane BB


I was there at Benalla in 1987, and I was part of that gaggle. It was
day #1. My teammate (John Byrd) and I tried to lead out and break
free from that gaggle at least 3 separate times while out on course.
Each time, we got low while looking for lift and had the gaggle run
back over the top of us. We then proceeded to climb back up
through the gaggle and do it all over again because no one else
wanted to lead out. As the day weakened and we determined that
making it home was "iffy" at best, we just made sure that we stayed
on top of the last gaggle so that we could have the longest final
glides. John was just a little below me. The landing fields were
abundant in the last 30 Km before Benalla, so a lot of competitors
just drove straight ahead until they were on the ground. I flinched
at maybe 200 Ft and made a left 90 degree turn to land in a nice
field. That 90 degree turn cost me the daily win. I finished second
that day with John a short ways behind. So, yes, it was maddening
to start so late because of the "start roulette game", but the gaggle
itself was maddening on course because nobody wanted to take the
initiative and lead out. I was convinced that if others had been as
aggressive as John and I had been, the gaggle might have made
better speed, thus enabling us to finish, as opposed to winding up
12 Km short. That's contest flying...

RO

John, do you have a proposed hard deck rule? The mention in the video was brief, and there seem to be a number of posable issues. The first seems to be, it does not seem to reduce the temptation for a low save, but does seem to reduce the "glide stretch" as the scoring point goes back to the hard deck only in the case of a landout. So if you pull off a 300ft save, no effect of the hard deck. While I like the idea of removing incentives for unsafe behavior, a hard deck seem to be fraught with difficulties.

That was a great video. Good that a wide variety of folks are thinking about this.

Possible Hard deck rule:

How about if at any time in the flight, you are drop below 750 feet, it is scored as a landout then and there.

Would have to be adjusted for ridge flight. Maybe if there is not a reasonable downhill glide to being above 750 feet agl. Not sure if flying over tiger country without a landing option should fit into this.



Leaching seems more interesting. How about if you enter a thermal that is already centered with fiberglass, you just got a free 20 seconds and you should have to pay for it in the scoring. Maybe scale it to how long it takes to find thermal cores that day.

If two are working together to follow an energy line, then each can see the other. If one is behind so the leader can't see, then maybe a few percent cost to the follower.

It will be interesting to see how some rule adjustments to to make things safer will cause new strategies which make new safety issues.

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 8:40:04 AM UTC-4, RR wrote:
John, do you have a proposed hard deck rule? The mention in the video was brief, and there seem to be a number of posable issues. The first seems to be, it does not seem to reduce the temptation for a low save, but does seem to reduce the "glide stretch" as the scoring point goes back to the hard deck only in the case of a landout. So if you pull off a 300ft save, no effect of the hard deck. While I like the idea of removing incentives for unsafe behavior, a hard deck seem to be fraught with difficulties.

There's a 285 post thread from early 2018 on just this subject. A few of the difficulties are discussed :-). Happy reading. I predict that by the end of it you'll be (regardless of your initial preferences) almost as grumpy as a pure glider guy that can't buy a tow. Almost.

T8





T8

On Wednesday, April 15, 2020 at 5:40:04 AM UTC-7, RR wrote:
John, do you have a proposed hard deck rule? The mention in the video was brief, and there seem to be a number of posable issues. The first seems to be, it does not seem to reduce the temptation for a low save, but does seem to reduce the "glide stretch" as the scoring point goes back to the hard deck only in the case of a landout. So if you pull off a 300ft save, no effect of the hard deck. While I like the idea of removing incentives for unsafe behavior, a hard deck seem to be fraught with difficulties.

The best way to run a hard deck in my view is to have a set of SUA files for minimum altitudes in different areas. That avoids the problem of, just how does the pilot know what the altitude is at this point, and it avoids the problem of mountains and ridges. Mountains and ridges stick out of the SUA, which is set at valley floor plus 500-1500 feet or so. The SUA can also be higher over unlandable terrain.

The fact that 99.99% of US contest pilots detest the idea is a larger impediment, but somehow Germans seem less opposed.

John Cochrane BB

Just my opinion, but I'm opposed to ANY hardedck rules.
It just adds another layer of complexity and point of contention.
Pilots need to be responsible for there actions.
If some guy can pull it off the ground at very low level...thats OK with me.
And Look at the non-trend of accidents over the last 50 years, the summary's are all basically the same:
Launch fatality's
Landing fatality's
CFIT fatalities
Poor assembly fatalities.
The numbers go up and down a bit each year, but if you look back at say 1965-1970 and compare that to say 2000- 2005 its about the same.
Look at the recent fatality at Seminole, the guys tow fails for some reason at I think 500' and he kills himself.
Same Sh*t different day.

Gaggles are a problem.
One change I've seen is task callers are much better at not calling tasks with head on legs in there, after that fatality in Uvalde..
Fly safe in 2020
Nicl
T