If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
Just a few points.
The sort of incidents I described are very rare, which is why people are sometimes not ready for them and may be caught. It would take many years of operation with synthetic before one could be sure that it could never behave as wire occasionally does. It is not just energy stored in the wire due to elasticity, it is also the energy due to its weight and speed. Synthetic may have less weight, but it still has some. Will winches be designed only for synthetic cable, and never used with wire? Even if the intention is to use synthetic, the winch should be designed so that wire can be used, and winch drivers should be trained for this. W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove "ic" to reply. "Bob Johnson" wrote in message ... Hi Bill -- After my limited experience with it, I can't help but think that synthetic is going to be a lot safer and less nasty to work with during breaks or whenever else it has to be dodged or handled. It's light as a feather, soft as a baby's butt and stores absolutely no energy. BJ "W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.)." wrote: A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually launching. The cab must be fully enclosed, doors and windows shut. The windows must be of laminated glass or similar, with Lexan or something similar on the inside surfaces. Any openings not glazed must be protected with expanded metal sheet, weldmesh or similar. If the cable breaks, and sooner or later it will, it can get inside the winch through any opening with amazing ferocity. One of the Long Mynd amateur winch drivers had the back window slightly open. The cable broke, came in through the window and attacked his clothing. He considered he had a very lucky escape, and has given up driving the winch. At another club one of the most experienced of all winch drivers parked his car directly behind the winch and facing it, what he thought was a safe distance away. This was at a busy club which has done many thousands of winch launches every year for a very long time. The cable broke and flew back, trashing the back of his car and round the car to break one of the front door windows. I saw the car afterwards and asked who had run into him. This sort of thing does not happen very often so it takes people by surprise. It is a completely avoidable risk and is just not worth taking. W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove "ic" to reply. "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... snip Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the sliding doors open in summer. Martin Gregorie |
#32
|
|||
|
|||
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)."
wrote: A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually launching. ...... "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... snip Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the sliding doors open in summer. Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between launches". I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the winch? Is there an optimum place? Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a large back seat would be fitted. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#33
|
|||
|
|||
On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 20:30:54 -0600, Bob Johnson
wrote: Martin -- A very good description, thanks for providing it! ...../.... Thus we learned that the differential feature as we were using it would have to be disabled and a couple of dog clutches would have to be devised in order to turn our winch into a true double-drum unit. The Supacat neutral and third brake is a useful design feature. With the lever released and the engine running the gear-box is spun up, so its oil is kept moving (good on a cold day) and the fluid clutch won't overheat. The combined control makes it easy to rotate the dog a little to help it engage. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#34
|
|||
|
|||
I am not an experienced winch driver, in fact I have not done it for years.
I was relating the lessons learned from others. As to how far away from the winch you should stand or park when not in the cab, I suggest you ask Bicester or Dick Stratton, he knows more than most and is the depository of all knowledge relating to winching. W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). Remove "ic" to reply. "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)." wrote: A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually launching. ..... "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... snip Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the sliding doors open in summer. Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between launches". I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the winch? Is there an optimum place? Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a large back seat would be fitted. Martin Gregorie |
#35
|
|||
|
|||
I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car
a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror, came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all. If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage. -- Bert Willing ASW20 "TW" "Martin Gregorie" a écrit dans le message de ... On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, "W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)." wrote: A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually launching. ..... "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... snip Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the sliding doors open in summer. Couldn't agree more. I should have added "..doors open between launches". I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the winch? Is there an optimum place? Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a large back seat would be fitted. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#36
|
|||
|
|||
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing"
wrote: I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror, came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all. If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage. I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my usual position is reasonable. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#37
|
|||
|
|||
Wow, I've observed several hundred winch launches
and have been launched by winch about 100 times and never realized how dangerous a cable break could be. The cable breaks I did see were 'non-events' to either the pilot or the winch operator. I'm beginning to think the best position of the winch operator is at some site way off to the side (where he could see the 'arc', but not the lateral movements ) or in an underground, fortified bunker. In either case, remote controls would be necessary. I think the old winch (long since replaced) we had protected the operator with only a screen fencing on the side facing the rising glider. This fencing had about 1 inch openings and the wire for it was maybe 1/8th inch in diameter (I'm trying to remember something from 20 years ago.) All other sides of the operator's position were open. The cable was multi-strand steel. While there are drawbacks to any launch, I really did like the winch! Ray Lovinggood Carrboro, North Carolina, USA LS-1d 'W8' At 11:42 05 November 2003, Bert Willing wrote: I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror, came back to the initial 'break position'. Didn't take a second for the whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all. If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage. -- Bert Willing ASW20 'TW' 'Martin Gregorie' a écrit dans le message de .. . On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, 'W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).' wrote: A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually launching. ..... 'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message ... Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the sliding doors open in summer. Couldn't agree more. I should have added '..doors open between launches'. I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the winch? Is there an optimum place? Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a large back seat would be fitted. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Well, I've been doing well above a thousand winch launches from each side,
and it is I very safe operation if the pilot knows what he does, and if the winch driver is well protected. Cable breaks are dangerous for the winch driver only if the cable breaks near the winch and the broken end homes in before he stops the drum, or if it's the right distance to just whip back and forth. I used to drive winches with either a metal grid in front of me, or a bullet-proof window. I once having the end of the cable slightly scratching my leg after a break, but so far most of the winches I've come across didn't have lateral protection and I don't know of anyone having seen the cable coming to get the winch driver around the forward protection at full speed ..-) -- Bert Willing ASW20 "TW" "Ray Lovinggood" a écrit dans le message de ... Wow, I've observed several hundred winch launches and have been launched by winch about 100 times and never realized how dangerous a cable break could be. The cable breaks I did see were 'non-events' to either the pilot or the winch operator. I'm beginning to think the best position of the winch operator is at some site way off to the side (where he could see the 'arc', but not the lateral movements ) or in an underground, fortified bunker. In either case, remote controls would be necessary. I think the old winch (long since replaced) we had protected the operator with only a screen fencing on the side facing the rising glider. This fencing had about 1 inch openings and the wire for it was maybe 1/8th inch in diameter (I'm trying to remember something from 20 years ago.) All other sides of the operator's position were open. The cable was multi-strand steel. While there are drawbacks to any launch, I really did like the winch! Ray Lovinggood Carrboro, North Carolina, USA LS-1d 'W8' At 11:42 05 November 2003, Bert Willing wrote: I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror, came back to the initial 'break position'. Didn't take a second for the whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all. If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage. -- Bert Willing ASW20 'TW' 'Martin Gregorie' a écrit dans le message de .. . On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 04:17:33 -0000, 'W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\).' wrote: A winch should never have any doors or windows open while actually launching. ..... 'Martin Gregorie' wrote in message ... Climate control: there is a diesel burning heater for winter and the sliding doors open in summer. Couldn't agree more. I should have added '..doors open between launches'. I always stay in the cable truck during launches as well, with it parked 10 metres away and 45 degrees back and to the side. Bill, I take your point about broken cable strikes on other vehicles. In your experience is parking where I significantly better than behind the winch? Is there an optimum place? Language note: 'Shag vehicle' has an entirely different meaning in the UK. Lets just say that towing things doesn't come into the frame and a large back seat would be fitted. -- martin@ : Martin Gregorie gregorie : Harlow, UK demon : co : Zappa fan & glider pilot uk : |
#39
|
|||
|
|||
"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing" wrote: I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror, came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all. If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage. I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my usual position is reasonable. At Enstone several years ago, we were using re-engined ex-ATC winches. The drums were beneath the driver and mesh plus lexan panels were in the floor to allow the driver to see the dog-clutch engagements. These panels were normally bolted down. During a wire break one day, some loops were thrown on a drum. One of the panels, which for some reason was not bolted down that day, was knocked up by the loops which then proceeded to shred the wire and thrash the shins on the driver, who was wearing short pants that day. It looked much worse than it actually turned out, but he carries some of the embedded wire bits to this day. I have had wire and/or tackle shoot past the winch a few times after a break or if the chute tangled. Falling tackle after a downwind launch can land about anywhere depending on the wind components. Frank Whiteley |
#40
|
|||
|
|||
Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:33:58 +0100, "Bert Willing" wrote: I've been once watching as the cable retrieve car driver (sitting in the car a couple of meters from the winch) during a cable break. The cable broke about 100m in front of the winch, slammed back completely to the back of the winch (the actual front end of the truck), broke the windshield & mirror, came back to the initial "break position". Didn't take a second for the whole thing to happen, the winch driver didn't see anything of it at all. If a cable breaks, there is no safe position wherever that cable may reach you if you're not sitting in a car, truck or cage. I appreciate that, Bert. So far all the bad break descriptions have described the cable lashing straight back over the winch. Has anybody known it to go sideways and if so, how far to the side? I'm now wondering if I should park the cable truck further away still or if my usual position is reasonable. As winch driver I usually have my car near the winch, especially when it is on the far end of the runway. I park the car at 90 degrees from the runway direction at about 20 m from the winch on the upwind side. I never saw or heard of a breaking cable reaching this place. I hope that I am not going to do the first experience of it. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Safety of winch launch vrs. aero tow? | Gary Boggs | Soaring | 172 | November 13th 03 06:59 PM |
Tost internal Winch | HL Falbaum | Soaring | 3 | September 24th 03 02:31 PM |
using winch instead of aerotow | goneill | Soaring | 5 | August 27th 03 02:46 PM |
Winch cable | Bill Daniels | Soaring | 5 | August 24th 03 11:13 PM |
Using Plasma Rope For Winch Tows | Craig Freeman | Soaring | 56 | August 24th 03 10:55 PM |