The aerodynamics of a towplane in a kiting glider situation

Kennedy said "we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, NOT because hey are easy but because they are hard."

I remember that speech well, and have listened to it a number of times over the years. It galvanized and inspired America to take the challenge, and it also inspired Congress to fund the space program. It was one of our Nation's finest accomplishments and well worth every penny, in my mind. But I wasn't even 10 years old, so I couldn't contribute either expertise or funding.

So, if you can't contribute expertise, can you at least contribute funding? I am sure we can find someone with the necessary skills and expertise. But they won't do it for free. 2G says he'll do it if we start by sending him a million bucks. Maybe there is someone who will consider the problem for less.

Simply pointing out a problem and demanding a change in no way constitutes a solution. If you feel so strongly, help fund a solution.

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 2:30:24 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Dont forget people Towing is not that dangerous and there are plenty of Happy towpilots out there and not just happy helicopter pilots

Hightime, you're kidding right? Towing is not that dangerous? Please tell that to the poor chap who died recently in California. Or to the tow pilot at Front Royal Virginia or any of the tow pilots who have perished due to a mistake on the part of the glider pilot in tow only to then be amplified by the failure of a device meant to save their life. Towing is not "that" dangerous until it become THAT dangerous.

It's not THAT dangerous until someone in back of the tow plane makes a big, stupid mistake. It's not THAT dangerous until a poorly trained student (in my case) or an inattentive, distracted instructor or one of the many squirrels who abound in the soaring community SCREW UP. Then it becomes THAT dangerous and for the record, how do you define "that?"

Plenty of Happy tow pilots? I'm sure there are and they will be happy until the s--t hits the fan and they find themselves a second or two from the end of their life, happy will go out the window. The fact of the matter is we don't know what we don't know and what we don't know can kill us. Every tow has the potential to end in disaster. Towing

Towing is not that dangerous, what a dumb f--king statement to make. Flying helicopters is dangerous too but not THAT dangerous? The difference is that I am responsible for my mistakes.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

No Its not dangerous, I have been part of a club for many years , we have high standards of training, so no student or pilot ever does this, its trained out of them from a very early on . When I solo them Im confident in their abilities. Sure it can happen by a pudknoker but its not statistically "dangerous" to tow a glider. Its statistically dangerous to fly helicopters , come back to towing you will be much safer

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 7:01:09 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I invite anyone who thinks getting an STC approval is a simple process to just download this handy 96 page guide from the FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/.../AC_21-40A.pdf

And, no, you can't just change the make/model on the paperwork and resubmit it. The process is the same for a different aircraft. (Pawnee vs. Cessna 185 etc.) You CAN apply for an STC within certain parameters for aircraft of a similar "family," like Cessna 180, 182, 185, but there are still differences that must be defined for each model unless the equipment, processes, installation and materials are IDENTICAL.

LOL! A few days ago you suggested that I should develop a KGARS and go into the business of selling it for a profit, hinting that this is easy-peasy. But you had no response when I said it would cost $1M. I have no illusions as to what the effort is to develop such a device. But, on the other hand, what is a life worth?

Tom

LOL! A few days ago you suggested that I should develop a KGARS and go into the business of selling it for a profit, hinting that this is easy-peasy.

I most definitely did NOT imply it was "easy-peasy." In fact my comment was "Great. Design it. Build it. Test it. Get it approved." And then I used Dave Nadler's trademark comment when anyone suggests something that is more complex than it appears.

"How hard can it be?"

Your comments implied that you could whip it out no problem, but just didn't have the time.

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 8:53:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:

LOL! A few days ago you suggested that I should develop a KGARS and go into the business of selling it for a profit, hinting that this is easy-peasy.

I most definitely did NOT imply it was "easy-peasy." In fact my comment was "Great. Design it. Build it. Test it. Get it approved." And then I used Dave Nadler's trademark comment when anyone suggests something that is more complex than it appears.

"How hard can it be?"

Your comments implied that you could whip it out no problem, but just didn't have the time.

Mark, you get everything ass-backwards: I said I have the time, I'm retired.. What I DON'T have is a towplane. I NEVER "implied" that I could "whip it out no problem." I also said that flight testing would be involved. Does $1M sound like it is "no problem?"

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 5:17:53 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Kennedy said "we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, NOT because hey are easy but because they are hard."

I remember that speech well, and have listened to it a number of times over the years. It galvanized and inspired America to take the challenge, and it also inspired Congress to fund the space program. It was one of our Nation's finest accomplishments and well worth every penny, in my mind. But I wasn't even 10 years old, so I couldn't contribute either expertise or funding.

So, if you can't contribute expertise, can you at least contribute funding? I am sure we can find someone with the necessary skills and expertise. But they won't do it for free. 2G says he'll do it if we start by sending him a million bucks. Maybe there is someone who will consider the problem for less.

Simply pointing out a problem and demanding a change in no way constitutes a solution. If you feel so strongly, help fund a solution.

I have been making large donations to a local food bank these days, otherwise I would be happy to donate to a fund that might at some point result in the saving of a life. However it would appear to me that it is and should be incumbent upon those operating tow planes to realize the necessity for change and protection of the tow pilot and take the steps both financially and mechanically to bring about those changes.

The real problem is a failure of understanding the big picture and the long term ramifications. People take more time deciding why they can't do something as opposed to why they can.

My contribution in part has been my experience with a very low kiting situation and my willingness to loudly voice that experience in an attempt to generate action. I'm out of the towing and gliding arena but those still involved need to take action or pay the ultimate price.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 6:43:52 PM UTC-4, Hightime wrote:
On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 2:30:24 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Dont forget people Towing is not that dangerous and there are plenty of Happy towpilots out there and not just happy helicopter pilots

Hightime, you're kidding right? Towing is not that dangerous? Please tell that to the poor chap who died recently in California. Or to the tow pilot at Front Royal Virginia or any of the tow pilots who have perished due to a mistake on the part of the glider pilot in tow only to then be amplified by the failure of a device meant to save their life. Towing is not "that" dangerous until it become THAT dangerous.

It's not THAT dangerous until someone in back of the tow plane makes a big, stupid mistake. It's not THAT dangerous until a poorly trained student (in my case) or an inattentive, distracted instructor or one of the many squirrels who abound in the soaring community SCREW UP. Then it becomes THAT dangerous and for the record, how do you define "that?"

Plenty of Happy tow pilots? I'm sure there are and they will be happy until the s--t hits the fan and they find themselves a second or two from the end of their life, happy will go out the window. The fact of the matter is we don't know what we don't know and what we don't know can kill us. Every tow has the potential to end in disaster. Towing

Towing is not that dangerous, what a dumb f--king statement to make. Flying helicopters is dangerous too but not THAT dangerous? The difference is that I am responsible for my mistakes.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

No Its not dangerous, I have been part of a club for many years , we have high standards of training, so no student or pilot ever does this, its trained out of them from a very early on . When I solo them Im confident in their abilities. Sure it can happen by a pudknoker but its not statistically "dangerous" to tow a glider. Its statistically dangerous to fly helicopters , come back to towing you will be much safer

I remember well my first day sitting in a college statistics class, the Prof said he could make any group of numbers mean anything he wished them to. To say that flying tow is "statistically" not dangerous denies the fact that each tow brings with it the potential for disaster.

Tell the chap who died recently about your "statistics." I'm sure he would feel better or perhaps better still, tell his family. Curious as to how you would word that.

I'm always amused when "instructors" claim how well their students are prepared. As my dad would say, if you do something long enough, bad things will happen. I knew a guy in Vietnam who was shot down on his first mission and another guy who was shot down on his last. You never know when your number is up.

Helicopters have their own "dangerous" characteristics, difference is I'm not dependent on another pilot hooked up to me not making a mistake. If I screw up it's on me. I'm willing to take that chance.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.

Walt, no offense friend, but I would rather take my chances as a tow pilot than fly in choppers lol. Way too many moving parts. Last time I was in one they kicked me out on a zip line (army rotc).

On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 8:53:40 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Walt, no offense friend, but I would rather take my chances as a tow pilot than fly in choppers lol. Way too many moving parts. Last time I was in one they kicked me out on a zip line (army rotc).


No offense taken. I've had close calls in helicopters and they were all as a result of my inexperience. The key is to keep flying, keep putting in inputs to get the outcome you are seeking. Learning to hover is a humbling experience. The helicopter I will assure you takes a much finer touch than any fixed wing airplane I have ever flown. Everything that leaves the ground is dangerous, gravity is a constant as is human failure.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot.

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 3:43:52 PM UTC-7, Hightime wrote:
On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 2:30:24 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Dont forget people Towing is not that dangerous and there are plenty of Happy towpilots out there and not just happy helicopter pilots

Hightime, you're kidding right? Towing is not that dangerous? Please tell that to the poor chap who died recently in California. Or to the tow pilot at Front Royal Virginia or any of the tow pilots who have perished due to a mistake on the part of the glider pilot in tow only to then be amplified by the failure of a device meant to save their life. Towing is not "that" dangerous until it become THAT dangerous.

It's not THAT dangerous until someone in back of the tow plane makes a big, stupid mistake. It's not THAT dangerous until a poorly trained student (in my case) or an inattentive, distracted instructor or one of the many squirrels who abound in the soaring community SCREW UP. Then it becomes THAT dangerous and for the record, how do you define "that?"

Plenty of Happy tow pilots? I'm sure there are and they will be happy until the s--t hits the fan and they find themselves a second or two from the end of their life, happy will go out the window. The fact of the matter is we don't know what we don't know and what we don't know can kill us. Every tow has the potential to end in disaster. Towing

Towing is not that dangerous, what a dumb f--king statement to make. Flying helicopters is dangerous too but not THAT dangerous? The difference is that I am responsible for my mistakes.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot

No Its not dangerous, I have been part of a club for many years , we have high standards of training, so no student or pilot ever does this, its trained out of them from a very early on . When I solo them Im confident in their abilities. Sure it can happen by a pudknoker but its not statistically "dangerous" to tow a glider. Its statistically dangerous to fly helicopters , come back to towing you will be much safer

I would like to see the citation on that statement. I have over two thousand hours in helicopters and felt safer than in my own home. I am a commercial, instrument rated helicopter pilot and the only people I knew that were killed were airplane pilots and glider pilots. Helicopters do have a high incident of incidences, like roll over accidents, but I have never known anyone hurt in a helo crash.