Arizona Cross-Country Soaring Camp

With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. The
idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended
to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It
will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson
with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st,
with May 14th and 15th as practice days.

The event is not a contest, but will be competitive.

The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including:

1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and
insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned
contests.
2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving
3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days

Differences from standard contests will be:

1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the
start must be El Tiro Gliderport
2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly
to OLC.
3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch
window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time
each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be
permitted.
4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to-
ground communications between team members
5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but
note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over
closed airspace may not apply. (We have not yet made a determination
about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards
permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified)
6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation
will not be permitted.

Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for
best flights in each category (still to be decided), including
distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores.

I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp.

Mike

On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The
idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended
to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It
will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson
with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st,
with May 14th and 15th as practice days.

The event is not a contest, but will be competitive.

The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including:

1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and
insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned
contests.
2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving
3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days

Differences from standard contests will be:

1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the
start must be El Tiro Gliderport
2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly
to OLC.
3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch
window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time
each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be
permitted.
4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to-
ground communications between team members
5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but
note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over
closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination
about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards
permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified)
6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation
will not be permitted.

Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for
best flights in each category (still to be decided), including
distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores.

I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp.

Mike

This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan
for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. What are the
quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El
Tiro flying area? Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan?

Matt

On Dec 14, 10:53*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:



With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The
idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended
to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It
will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson
with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st,
with May 14th and 15th as practice days.

The event is not a contest, but will be competitive.

The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including:

1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and
insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned
contests.
2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving
3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days

Differences from standard contests will be:

1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the
start must be El Tiro Gliderport
2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly
to OLC.
3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch
window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time
each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be
permitted.
4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to-
ground communications between team members
5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but
note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over
closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination
about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards
permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified)
6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation
will not be permitted.

Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for
best flights in each category (still to be decided), including
distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores.

I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp.

Mike

This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan
for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. *What are the
quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El
Tiro flying area? *Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan?

Matt

The landout options for El Tiro vary between severe tiger country in
some areas to lots of good landable fields and a few good airports in
other areas. It depends which way you go. Pilots with little XC
experience would be safest working between Ryan to the South and
Estrella to the North. This area has lots of field landing areas and
several good airports/airstrips. There is a caution even for that
though as the last 8 miles approaching El Tiro from the North are
completely unlandable. With good altitude (10k ft) a more lot of the
area becomes available for safe XC and we task in all directions
except West.

Any pilot that feels comfortable flying at Parowan would have no
problem flying safely at El Tiro. Unlike Parowan the airport has 10
runway ends so you never have to worry about being able to land safely
when you get back.

Andy

On Dec 15, 6:07*am, Andy wrote:
On Dec 14, 10:53*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:



On Dec 14, 2:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:

With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *The
idea for this came independently from several pilots and is intended
to provide a venue to encourage cross-country flying in Arizona. It
will be based at TUSC's home base of El Tiro Gliderport, near Tucson
with the dates for the camp set tentatively for May 16 through 21st,
with May 14th and 15th as practice days.

The event is not a contest, but will be competitive.

The camp will be run similarly to a contest in some ways, including:

1) A registration fee (to cover prizes, operating costs and
insurance), but this will be significantly lower than at sanctioned
contests.
2) A daily safety meeting and prize-giving
3) Six days of competitive flying preceded by two practice days

Differences from standard contests will be:

1) No set course - pilots may choose to fly anywhere, except that the
start must be El Tiro Gliderport
2) No scorer. Flights will be submitted by each participant directly
to OLC.
3) No set launch or start time. We are considering a "standard launch
window" where contest-style launches will be conducted at a set time
each day. Launches before or after this launch window will be
permitted.
4) Team flying will be permitted, including air-to-air and air-to-
ground communications between team members
5) Flights must be done in compliance with all applicable FARs, but
note that since this is not a contest, restrictions on flying over
closed airspace may not apply. *(We have not yet made a determination
about cloud flying or flying after sunset, but are leaning towards
permitting this if aircraft are suitably equipped and certified)
6) Flarm use is encouraged during the camp, but "stealth" operation
will not be permitted.

Prizes will be given on a daily basis and at the end of the camp for
best flights in each category (still to be decided), including
distance and speed. These will all be based on OLC scores.

I will post more details as we firm up arrangements for the camp.

Mike

This looks pretty enticing. it's just a little farther than Parowan
for me, and I am looking for an adventure next year. *What are the
quality/quantity of landouts for an intermediate XC pilot in the El
Tiro flying area? *Like Minden, Like Ely? Like Parowan?

Matt

The landout options for El Tiro vary between severe tiger country in
some areas to lots of good landable fields and a few good airports in
other areas. It depends which way you go. *Pilots with little XC
experience would be safest working between Ryan to the South and
Estrella to the North. *This area has lots of field landing areas and
several good airports/airstrips. *There is a caution even for that
though as the last 8 miles approaching El Tiro from the North are
completely unlandable. *With good altitude (10k ft) a more lot of the
area becomes available for safe XC and we task in all directions
except West.

Any pilot that feels comfortable flying at Parowan would have no
problem flying safely at El Tiro. *Unlike Parowan the airport has 10
runway ends so you never have to worry about being able to land safely
when you get back.

Andy

"a lot more of the area". I wish one could edit after posting.

On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:
With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
accomplished by waiver.

Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
"answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.

John Cochrane

On Dec 15, 8:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:

With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
accomplished by waiver.

Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
"answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.

John Cochrane

This sounds like a neat Idea, but I think there's nothing wrong with
calling an acual contest task. A good example of a XC camp/starter
contest is the Memorial day contest put on by the Chicago Clider
Council. The contest is set up as a weekend sports class contest, and
acual tasks are set each day. The nice thing bout the way this contest
is run is that two tasks ar called each day. One short "beginner"
task, and a long tak for the more advanced participants. Both
categories are scored on winscore as in a real contest.

I had a blast flying it for the first time last year in my Ka-6, and
learned a ton. It actually got me thinking of maybe flying a contest
in the future, but the lack of anything in Region 7 (besides the
memotial day contest) is keeping me from probably flying in a real
sports class conest this year.

Peter

.... A good example of a XC camp/starter
contest is the Memorial day contest put on by the Chicago Clider
Council. The contest is set up as a weekend sports class contest, and
acual tasks are set each day. The nice thing bout the way this contest
is run is that two tasks ar called each day. One short "beginner"
task, and a long tak for the more advanced participants. Both
categories are scored on winscore as in a real contest.

I had a blast flying it for the first time last year in my Ka-6, and
learned a ton. It actually got me thinking of maybe flying a contest
in the future, but the lack of anything in Region 7 (besides the
memotial day contest) is keeping me from probably flying in a real
sports class conest this year.

Peter

This option will be available for real (sanctioned) regional contests
this year. You can have two handicapped classes, call it "pro" and
"am" or "leisure" and "seizure", one with big tasks and one with a
more beginner friendly task.

So let's make Sky Soaring a regional contest this year!

Among the many advantages of running an event by ssa rules is that
pilots learn how contests work and discover they might be fun.

I'm surprised too if the Arizona crowd wants go-anywhere-you-want
distance tasks. Long unrestricted MAT are not particularly popular
elsewhere, to put it mildly. But if that's what you want, the rules
let you do it.

John Cochrane

On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Dec 14, 4:24*pm, Mike the Strike wrote:

With almost perfect timing to answer some of the problems raised by
the USA Competition Rules Committee, Tucson Soaring Club is pleased to
make a preliminary announcement of a Cross-Country Soaring Camp. *

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest. Fees are
completely up to the organizer. If you want to charge less, be our
guest. If you want to let pilots go anywhere they want and score by
distance, call an unrestricted MAT with 8 hours. Or call 4 30 mile
turn areas, which is almost the same as OLC. All the rest can be
accomplished by waiver.

Cross country camps are fine. But I hate to see this framed as a
"answer" to unnamed "problems" with contest rules. The rules are
written to make contests fair, safe, affordable, and above all
attractive. If something else improves on the "attractive" part, tell
the RC how to fix it rather than give up and start something new.

John Cochrane

John:

Perhaps I should have used the term "issues" rather than "problems".

Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
no available windows for a sanctioned contest. Secondly, we wanted a
more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
flying. One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
to fly in the allocated time. A whole bunch of gliders hung around
for hours waiting for the start as the day died. The task was also
set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
lot of landouts. Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
greatly enhancing safety. One or two local pilots have a good history
of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
round a fixed course.

However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
fly further and have more fun. Pretty much what we do most weekends.
We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
by providing mentors. Even you must agree that regular contests
aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.

Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).

Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
task-setting and scoring.

In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.

Mike

On Dec 15, 7:23*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

I can't resist the bait. What "problems" exactly? Almost all of the
goals here are easy to accomplish in a "real" contest.

I heard that SSA would not give approval for a Region 9 South
contest, which is what Tucson club had wanted to host. No idea why,
but I'm not happy about it.

http://www.asa-soaring.org/forum/top...ro+in+May+2011

Andy

Mike:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I'm keeping this open because we
really do want to hear from people and structure contests to be as
attractive as possible.


Firstly, we chose to have a camp because we were told that there were
no available windows for a sanctioned contest. *

This doesn't sound right. Regionals can run pretty much any time they
want. Especially out West where there are so few contests. I'll look
in to it.

Secondly, we wanted a
more rule-free environment to encourage uninhibited cross-country
flying. *One of the issues we had last year in a local contest series
was a delayed start (3:00 PM!) with a long task that proved impossible
to fly in the allocated time. *A whole bunch of gliders hung around
for hours waiting for the start as the day died. *The task was also
set in the opposite direction to the best weather and ended up with a
lot of landouts. *Furthermore, enabling free flying with no set course
will avoid the majority of conflicts in gaggles and turnpoints,
greatly enhancing safety. *One or two local pilots have a good history
of spotting days with early starts and have made good use of those.
We want to encourage pilots to read the weather and conditions and
decide for themselves when and where to fly, rather than just race
round a fixed course.

As before, there is nothing in contest rules that forces any of this.
You can open the start gate at 8 am, call an unrestricted MAT, or set
huge turn areas.


However, a particular beef of mine is the US attitude to team flying,
which is diametrically opposite to that in the rest of the world.
Free of this (uniquely US) rule, we can fly together, chat about it,
fly further and have more fun. *Pretty much what we do most weekends.
We also see the camp as a good format to bring on juniors, less
experienced cross-country pilots and those not familiar with the area
by providing mentors. *Even you must agree that regular contests
aren't the best place for newcomers to hone their skills.

For just this reason we're allowing team flying in regionals this
year. Just ask for a waiver. We're hungry for regionals to try it, and
if it's a success we'll make it a permanent option in the rules.


Free of the contest restriction to cross certain airspace will also
improve opportunities from El Tiro (this is for Kirk).

For fairness, the rules don't us fly in places where a transponder is
required (over class C). If everyone has a transponder, you might get
a waiver for that. More generally, just about anything reasonable you
want can be arranged by waiver. Ask before giving up!


Insurance for contests is significantly higher than camps or fly-ins
and we are going to avoid a lot of the costs of having manpower to do
task-setting and scoring.

Can't help here, but I hope you're getting the same protection from
"camp" insurance that you do from more expensive "contest" insurance.
You usually get what you pay for. Task setting is easy -- it sounds
like you're going to call an unrestricted MAT every day! I don't see
an escape from scoring, but winscore really does make it easy.


In short, we are also trying to encourage cross-country flying, but
don't think that contests with ever-increasing restrictive rules are
necessarily the only or best way to achieve this.

I'm not sure what "restrictions" you have in mind. We also want to
encourage cross country flying, and that's why the rules are becoming
ever-less restrictive, with more and more options available and more
still available by waiver!

John