Standardization in Slack Rope Recovery?

good catch

I should have said that I was "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"

and as you can read from further posts, there are many (correct) methods for eliminating slack. they key is to figure out which one the CFI wants on the checkout.

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 12:36:02 PM UTC-5, K m wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
Bob Pasker,
Why would you "Not perform the maneuver correctly" during a checkout? Please post and tell us some of the "Incorrect" slack recoveries you have been taught.
Thanks

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
good catch

I should have said that I was "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"

I question your deference to the CFI.

I'd be much more interested in practicing the maneuver the way I always practiced the maneuver (yaw slightly away from the slack). Removing slack is something that I do without thinking about it and if I had the opportunity to practice with 'deliberate slack rope', I'd profit by reinforcing my 'muscle memory'.

Learning the CFI's unfamiliar way of removing slack is counter-productive, especially if it means risking the possibility of a second loop from doing something improperly. What is the point?

So it seems best to resolve on the ground what techniques I'm going to use in the air. If the CFI wants me to do it differently, then he'd have to convince me that the way I was taught to do something was dangerous. If he were inflexible and insisted on doing things his way, I might opt out of getting in the glider with him. If we can't get along on the ground, then I should not fly with him.

I've flown with many CFIs. I'm grateful to all of them. Only one was rigid, inflexible, and unable to carry on a conversation that deviated from his shop worn script. In retrospect, I should have opted out of flying with him.

After we've been flying on our own for a
while, slack rope situations become very
rare (except on Condor with which I am
getting through a problematic
introduction).

Instructors of course encounter slack rope
situations more frequently with
magnitudes where many of us would have
yanked long before. Flying a CG hook my
hand is always on the release during tow.

My bigger concern is instructors that want
to see a fully developed spin before
recovery. That builds a muscle memory
that will have you smacking the ground if
you get an incipient in the circuit.

I have a thankfully very short list of
instructors I will not fly with.

The latest addition said some years ago
there was some unidentifiable concern he
"could not put [his] finger on".

there are two kinds of CFIs: one kind evaluates your overall skill and safety, and the other kind thinks they can make you into a new pilot in an hour's flight. the first kind are not a problem. the second kind need to be appeased.


On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 11:43:07 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
good catch

I should have said that I was "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"

I question your deference to the CFI.

I'd be much more interested in practicing the maneuver the way I always practiced the maneuver (yaw slightly away from the slack). Removing slack is something that I do without thinking about it and if I had the opportunity to practice with 'deliberate slack rope', I'd profit by reinforcing my 'muscle memory'.

Learning the CFI's unfamiliar way of removing slack is counter-productive, especially if it means risking the possibility of a second loop from doing something improperly. What is the point?

So it seems best to resolve on the ground what techniques I'm going to use in the air. If the CFI wants me to do it differently, then he'd have to convince me that the way I was taught to do something was dangerous. If he were inflexible and insisted on doing things his way, I might opt out of getting in the glider with him. If we can't get along on the ground, then I should not fly with him.

I've flown with many CFIs. I'm grateful to all of them. Only one was rigid, inflexible, and unable to carry on a conversation that deviated from his shop worn script. In retrospect, I should have opted out of flying with him.

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 5:15:04 PM UTC-5, George Haeh wrote:
Flying a CG hook my
hand is always on the release during tow.

One of my hot button issues cockpit management issues...

Touching release, okay. Grasping release... not so much. Big gust, pilot bumps head, flinches, releases inadvertently. http://tinyurl.com/gm7mwms

For gliders like Ventus a/b and ASW-19&20 with release behind stick, make a loop of parachute cord, tie to release knob, lay across left leg. Easy to get to, less likely to cause problems.

best,
Evan Ludeman

Bill T " Not all gliders have nose tow or tost connections. Can't always rely on the rope pulling the nose sideways to buffer the tension in the rope. "

While True, moving off too the side (top left or right of boxing the wake) it will yaw the tow plane to help buffer the tension.

Brian

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
good catch

I should have said that I was "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"

I question your deference to the CFI.

I'd be much more interested in practicing the maneuver the way I always practiced the maneuver (yaw slightly away from the slack). Removing slack is something that I do without thinking about it and if I had the opportunity to practice with 'deliberate slack rope', I'd profit by reinforcing my 'muscle memory'.

Learning the CFI's unfamiliar way of removing slack is counter-productive, especially if it means risking the possibility of a second loop from doing something improperly. What is the point?

So it seems best to resolve on the ground what techniques I'm going to use in the air. If the CFI wants me to do it differently, then he'd have to convince me that the way I was taught to do something was dangerous. If he were inflexible and insisted on doing things his way, I might opt out of getting in the glider with him. If we can't get along on the ground, then I should not fly with him.

I've flown with many CFIs. I'm grateful to all of them. Only one was rigid, inflexible, and unable to carry on a conversation that deviated from his shop worn script. In retrospect, I should have opted out of flying with him.

Great advice!

A long, long time ago I did some instructing for a club at a major university in the Boston area. Part of the checkout flight with them included a slack rope demo.

The check pilot described it and then performed it: climb up above normal high tow position, then dive on the towplane and move out to one side until a big loop of slack forms (in this case, it disappeared behind and under the wing, although we were well out to the side by then). To recover, hold position out to the side and allow the speed to bleed off; watch for the loop to reappear; and then dive slightly and turn in behind the towplane to match the speed as the slack comes out.

The check pilot's attempt was "OK", although eye opening when I watched the amount of loose rope go back behind the glider and the reappear some seconds later.

"Now you try it." So I did. With about the same modest success. It wasn't a smooth synchronization of speed with the towplane but we didn't break the rope. "OK, uh, that's good enough."

It turned out that the local designated examiner, an experienced glider pilot, required this maneuver, which I never encountered again. Years later I recall reading about a fatal training accident in the area, the details about which were sketchy but that seemed to resonate unhappily with that day.

It remains one of those experiences that I'm sort of glad I had but which I would never intentionally repeat or ask anyone else to.

Chip Bearden

On 2/2/2016 5:16 PM, wrote:
A long, long time ago I did some instructing for a club at a major
university in the Boston area. Part of the checkout flight with them
included a slack rope demo.

The check pilot described it and then performed it: climb up above normal
high tow position, then dive on the towplane and move out to one side until
a big loop of slack forms (in this case, it disappeared behind and under
the wing, although we were well out to the side by then). To recover, hold
position out to the side and allow the speed to bleed off; watch for the
loop to reappear; and then dive slightly and turn in behind the towplane to
match the speed as the slack comes out.

The check pilot's attempt was "OK", although eye opening when I watched the
amount of loose rope go back behind the glider and the reappear some
seconds later.

"Now you try it." So I did. With about the same modest success. It wasn't a
smooth synchronization of speed with the towplane but we didn't break the
rope. "OK, uh, that's good enough."

It turned out that the local designated examiner, an experienced glider
pilot, required this maneuver, which I never encountered again. Years later
I recall reading about a fatal training accident in the area, the details
about which were sketchy but that seemed to resonate unhappily with that
day.

It remains one of those experiences that I'm sort of glad I had but which I
would never intentionally repeat or ask anyone else to.

Chip Bearden


Freely associating...your experience brings back memories!

To the point of "doing it the way the instructor requests," once
(U.S.-centric) BFRs became mandated, my approach was to ask the CFIG what
removal technique they wanted, before actually practicing slack removal, and -
if it was different from what I'd been initially taught - tried to do it as
they requested, rationalizing learning was learning.

That approach generally worked to our mutual satisfaction, though my two
ugliest and alarming-to-me instructional scenarios came on BFRs - yup, slack rope!

The first occurred when I was near the top of my game, and the "I'll demo-bow"
put into the rope by the instructor was H-U-G-E, below and well behind the
Twin Grob wing's trailing edge as seen by me from the front seat. I was
thoroughly and alarmingly impressed! From the rear seat, the instructor lost
sight of the loop and sensibly requested verbal "Howzitgoin'?" input from me
until he once again had the rope entirely in sight. Since it was his demo, it
was a no-brainer to let him undo what he had wrought, though - years before
"scenario based training" became popular in USA training-land - I'll admit to
quickly imagining, "How best to quickly and unequivocally obtain PIC handoff
if this starts to go *really* bad?" Happily, intervention wasn't necessary,
though I think we were both amazed the rope didn't break. After a short period
of reverential silence, to his credit the CFIG admitted, "(shaky laugh)I may
have overdone that."

The other came one early spring when I wasn't so on top of my game, then
soaring mostly at summer camps rather than year 'round. Another
instructor-created big bow, which he wanted me to remove via the "dive and
match speeds" method - performed-by-me only on BFRs - and my speed matching,
didn't. You really can permanently lose a 200' rope within a half-mile of the
airport; it broke simultaneously at both ends; the retained Tost ring set in
the nose proved it to the peanut gallery...likely an interesting
internal-to-the-rope shock effect. He signed off on the BFR on the (honest)
grounds I "never got slack in the rope, and was obviously out of practice."

I'd hope the "never get slack in the rope" becomes a universal truism for
everyone with increasing stick time, but in fact the more I flew, the more
difficult for me it was to demonstrate slack removal skills, simply because "I
never had any to deal with." Unused skills tend to diminish...

Sometimes the things we learn exceed those we set out to!

Bob W.

As announced in SOARING magazine . . .
The Soaring Safety Foundation (SSF), the training and safety arm of the SSA, is producing short training videos based on the required tasks in the FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) at the Commercial level, available by links at www.soaringsafety.org

The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for Private, Commercial and CFI glider pilots require that "slack line" recoveries be performed on the FAA Practical Test ("checkride.") Other videos in SSF series include boxing the wake and slips to landing without the use of air brakes or spoilers, as required in the FAA PTS.

Additional videos to be released soon include accuracy landings, downwind and crosswind landings. Student pilots and Flight Instructors should consider that the SSF is not suggesting these videos are the ONLY way to accomplish the maneuvers in the PTS.

The videos include the FAA criteria for the task in the PTS then demonstrations of some suggested methods that may help you pass the checkride. Common errors are discussed in these short videos filmed at Marfa Gliders in southwest Texas (in January), home of my "Free Checkrides" offer as posted on this newsgroup.

Burt Compton, FAA Designated Pilot Examiner, Trustee of the Soaring Safety Foundation.

P.S. Come to the SSA Convention in Greenville, SC, FEB 17-20.
Attend the SSF Seminar on Wednesday FEB 17 at 6 PM in the Hilton-Greenville, Anderson ballroom. Free and qualifies for FAA "Wings" credit.
Then visit us in the SSF booth FEB 18-20 in the nearby TD Convention Hall, Greenville, SC.
I'll see you there!