If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#71
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
Andrew,
Airworthy is not the same as flyable or safe for flight etc. Hilton "Andrew Gideon" wrote in message news On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:38:09 +0000, Hilton wrote: NOTE: If one or both of these conditions are not met, the aircraft would be considered unairworthy. What about an otherwise airworthy aircraft whose airworthiness certificate was destroyed in the laundry? Is that airplane airworthy? My understanding (not having researched this; just what I was told) is that it is not. That despite being itself in fine shape absent a paperwork problem. Not quite the same, but still not really TC or "condition for safe operation" issue: what about a perfectly fine airplane that's out of annual. Let's take it further, and say that it received a 100 hour inspection on Jan 31 and was out of annual on Feb 1. The only difference is the lack of an IA's signature. Unairworthy? - Andrew |
#72
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:54:46 +0000, Hilton wrote:
Airworthy is not the same as flyable or safe for flight etc. Yes, that is my point. - Andrew |
#73
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
Roy Smith wrote: 10 kts too fast over the threshold is pretty significant. I don't fly the 177RG, but I found a checklist on the net that lists normal landing speeds at 60-70 kts and Vfe (top of the white arc, which is what you said you were doing on final) as 95. That's 25-35 kts too fast to land. 35 knots too fast isn't a flap issue. That's a serious training issue. At least he wouldn't have been hurt in the wreck since he was so far behind the airplane. |
#74
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
Jay Honeck wrote: When you own an aircraft -- especially one with a big, heavy 6- cylinder engine that is slightly nose-heavy -- you think twice before "practicing" such things. Tires, struts, brakes, firewalls, props, and engines all become HUGE impediments to "practicing" landings with the stall horn squalling, since you're paying for them all. That's really disappointing to hear. I didn't realize this attitude even existed but this does explain some things I see. I have more fun plunking my airplane down in small spots than just about anything else. |
#75
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
Jay Honeck wrote: Which isn't to say we shy away from short fields. We routinely fly into 2200 foot grass strips, so we're fairly proficient at it. You should have no problem using a strip half that length with two of you on board. Is your nosewheel/strut/firewall that delicate? That's not Pipers reputation, that's Cessna's. Piper's rep is building planes that are overweight, not fragile. |
#76
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
Matt Whiting wrote: It is hard to miss Cessna flaps either. I have to admit to wondering where Kobra mind was during that landing. Full flaps in any Cessna I've flown is simply hard to ignore, but I haven't flown a 177. I owned one. You can't miss them if you happen to be in the aircraft during a landing. |
#77
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:43:01 -0700, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote: On Jul 9, 10:16 pm, "Aluckyguess" wrote: I land without flaps all the time when I am buy my self. I think I land smother. I have done this in my Cherokee 180, BE 35, A36 and a skipper I trained in for a short time."Kobra" wrote in message . .. Aviators, My wife and I flew to Williamsburg (JGG) in our 177RG on Sat. and stayed until Sunday. On base at Williamsburg I noticed that the airspeed was really high. I raised the nose and pulled some power. I had 20 degrees of flaps in and that is what I usually land with. On final the airspeed was just coming out of the green and touching the white arc with only 15 inches manifold pressure. On short final I dropped the last 10 degrees, but despite that, man I came across the threshold like a bat-out-of-hell. The runway was only 3000 feet, but somehow I got it down and stopped after heavy brake burning. I just figured I used some really bad technique or picked up a tailwind. I looked at the wind sock and it was stone dead and limp. On my pre-flight for the trip home I found out why all this happened. Sometime after lift-off to JGG the flaps went TU. I had no flaps on landing and I never noticed!! I can hardly believe I don't consciencely or unconsciencely look to see if the flaps are deploying. Why didn't I notice that the flap indicator didn't move or that the plane didn't change pitch or that it didn't push me against the shoulder harness as usual. I just didn't catch the fact that no flaps came out. Now I had to get home. I called my mechanic and he said it could be many things (it wasn't the breaker). He also said I was a complete wimp (he used a different word that began with a p) if I couldn't land that plane without the flaps on our 3,500 feet of runway. I took off and started to ponder the situation: No flaps No daylight with 3 miles vis. in haze and mist (ASOS said 10 miles but no way could you see more than 3 miles) No landing light (it burned out two weeks ago) No wind (so no headwind to help slow the airplane's ground speed on landing) and I've done a grand total of two no-flap landings in my life. One with my primary CFI and one during my check out when I bought the plane. Both during the day with a headwind. Well, obviously everything went fine and I exited on the second taxiway off 19 at N14, my homebase. I landed as slow as I could, but the nose was so high that seeing ahead of the airplane was almost impossible. I used runway 19 because runway 1 has trees on the approach and I wanted to come in as flat as possible. That's why they teach slips. Anyway...how many different things can cause this? Where should I start looking? I also recommend that everyone do some no flap landings each year. Kobra- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - W/o flaps you will land in a more nose high attitude, which tends to make for smoother landings, in my experience. A Bo landed properly (landed, not flown on) with no flaps is so nose high the only view you have of the airport is out the side windows. In the past I'd practice them every few weeks. A no flap landing is much faster than a proper landing and can easily use twice as much runway as well. It also adds new meaning to the word, "float". We had a DE here on the field who used to say, "anyone can fly one on but it takes a pilot to land one". ' -Robert, CFII |
#78
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:14:04 -0500, "Dan Luke"
wrote: "Matt Whiting" wrote: The Arrow I now fly which has a 3-blade prop is much worse than my 182 in the glide ratio department. I can barely make a 180 power-off landing with it. You have to turn base as soon as you cut power abeam the landing spot or you'll never make it! As a CFI giving me a checkout in an Arrow put it: "You can cut the power and glide a Cessna in, but a Piper comes down like dropped car keys." You can also dead stick a Cherokee 180 with a little practice. If you want steep try landing a Glasair III power off. It has a little bitty wing with nearly 30# per sq foot of wing loading. The Cherokee is about 17# (give or take depending on year and version) At best glide you are probably looking at descent greater than 2200 fpm yet you should be able to grease it on. Even a Bonanza power off with gear out and full flaps has an impressive rate of descent.OTOH with gear and flaps up best glide at roughly 120 MPH gives a rate of descent of only 500 to 600 fpm which gives a glide ratio between 17.6 and 21 to one. Engine out is gear up and no flaps until the runway is made. Then you hit the gear switch and flap switch to full. As you need to get rid of a LOT of speed it's a good idea to practice this so you know "when the runway is made" because if you wait until you are over the end of the runway you are going to use a LOT of it, probably over 3000 feet. OTOH a short filed landing will use less than 1200 and with a bit of practice you can shorten that. Of course, final for a short field is STEEP. Flaps are a good portion of the energy management. |
#79
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:17:41 GMT, Darrel Toepfer
wrote: Matt Whiting wrote: The Arrow wasn't all that bad with the original two-blade prop. But when the hub failed inspection requiring prop replacement, a decision was made to go with the 3-blade as it was cheaper (go figure). What a mistake. The 3-blade vibrates much more, doesn't perform any better on takeoff, climb or cruise, and performs MUCH worse during glide. I'd look into having the prop indexed (ie. moved one blade on the hub) to fix the vibration issue... With the 3 blade, climb should be better, cruise will suffer, takeoff noise should be reduced too... My neighbors Baron lost nearly 8 knots on cruise, he's alot quieter when taking off over the house, and climbs very well out of short strips though... On the Deb I lost about 4 MPH on cruise and gained over 250 fpm on climb. It also made energy management and landings much easier. Now when ATC says "keep the speed up as long as praticable" it'll raise some eyebrows. :-)) Love it! |
#80
|
|||
|
|||
flaps
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:38:14 -0700, Jay Honeck
wrote: Spend an hour or two landing on the numbers with the stall horn squalling. It's funny how much easier this was to do when I was renting airplanes. Heck, I'd routinely drag it in at minimum forward air speed and plunk it on the numbers, just to see how short I could land. This should be a part of every ones practice. When you own an aircraft -- especially one with a big, heavy 6- cylinder engine that is slightly nose-heavy -- you think twice before "practicing" such things. Tires, struts, brakes, firewalls, props, Nope, not even with a Beech retract. I'd probably do two (or more) of these about every time I'd go out and practice. After about the second one I'd find the "airport bums" (group I hang out with) hanging on the fence, grading the landings. and engines all become HUGE impediments to "practicing" landings with the stall horn squalling, since you're paying for them all. I bought 'em to use and I used them to lean both the limits of the airplane and myself. This post, IMHO, above all else, is a real tribute to the utility of manual, Johnson-bar flap actuators. Hard to miss when THOSE don't work. When I add flaps I look at them. It's become a habit. OTOH the Johnson bar flaps in the Cherokee 180 could make for a very impressive, short roll out after a STEEP descent. :-) |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Cowl Flaps | N114RW | Home Built | 0 | June 27th 07 09:25 PM |
What are cowl flaps? | Mxsmanic | Piloting | 31 | October 27th 06 04:28 PM |
Fowler flaps? | TJ400 | Home Built | 20 | May 19th 06 02:15 AM |
FLAPS | skysailor | Soaring | 36 | September 7th 05 05:28 AM |
FLAPS-Caution | Steve Leonard | Soaring | 0 | August 27th 05 04:10 AM |