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Parowan midair?



 
 
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  #71  
Old June 21st 10, 04:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob 7U
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Posts: 25
Default Parowan midair?

I suppose the term 'low cost' is relative and depends upon whether you
compare it to the cost of your sailplane or your life.

Bob 7U

On Jun 21, 11:18*am, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
"Mike Schumann" wrote in ...
On 6/20/2010 8:23 PM, Andreas Maurer wrote:


... Snip ...



FLARM is useless unless everyone is equipped. *That is NOT going to
happen in the US. *Low cost ADS-B could be available tomorrow if the FAA
would certify the units. *NAVWORX and MITRE have working prototypes that
could go into production overnight if we can get the FAA to get off
their but.


We need to get people to send letters to Randy Babbitt to get some top
level attention to this. *It also wouldn't hurt to copy Craig Fuller at
AOPA. *They should be pushing this a LOT more agresively than they have.


--
Mike Schumann


Just courious, what do you consider "Low Cost." *Us guys with old inexpensive sailplanes would like to know.

Wayne


  #72  
Old June 21st 10, 04:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Wayne Paul
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Posts: 905
Default Parowan midair?

Bob,

I don't appreciate the smart remark

I really want to know. I fly what I can afford. If ADS-B becomes required equipment and is more then I can afford. I will have to leave the sport the sport I love.

Wayne

..................................
"Bob 7U" wrote in message ...
I suppose the term 'low cost' is relative and depends upon whether you
compare it to the cost of your sailplane or your life.

Bob 7U

On Jun 21, 11:18 am, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
"Mike Schumann" wrote in ...
On 6/20/2010 8:23 PM, Andreas Maurer wrote:


... Snip ...



FLARM is useless unless everyone is equipped. That is NOT going to
happen in the US. Low cost ADS-B could be available tomorrow if the FAA
would certify the units. NAVWORX and MITRE have working prototypes that
could go into production overnight if we can get the FAA to get off
their but.


We need to get people to send letters to Randy Babbitt to get some top
level attention to this. It also wouldn't hurt to copy Craig Fuller at
AOPA. They should be pushing this a LOT more agresively than they have.


--
Mike Schumann


Just courious, what do you consider "Low Cost." Us guys with old inexpensive sailplanes would like to know.

Wayne


  #73  
Old June 21st 10, 05:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jip
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Posts: 5
Default Parowan midair?

"Dave White" wrote in message
...
I've been following this thread with complete astonishment that anyone
could consider the conduct of the Ventus pilot praiseworthy in any
respect. There was simply no way for this pilot to assess the
airworthiness of the glider after the collision. Just because the
visible portion of the nose appeared to be intact does not mean the
glider was undamaged elsewhere, or even that the nose was airworthy.
Taking this risk in the name of a competition that is ultimately
meaningless is not only unbelievable, it's a detriment to soaring,
which is already in jeopardy in many areas. Someone with such poor
judgement has no place in our sport. "Careless and reckless" are the
words the FAA will use to remove this pilot from the community. I'd
go with "stupid." There is simply no excuse for what this individual
did.


There are many old pilots and there are many bold pilots.
But....., there are n't many old bold pilots ;-)


  #74  
Old June 21st 10, 06:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected][_2_]
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Posts: 45
Default Parowan midair?

On Jun 21, 10:51*am, Dave White wrote:
*There is simply no excuse for what this individual
did.

The pilot doesn't need an excuse- free will is sufficient. I would
hope that people alone over the boondocks are free to make whatever
choices they wish, even if those choices are to maximize the potential
of getting a tin trophy. Free will aside the worst thing for safety
would be rigid 'if-then' post collision rules. If you can't handle a
little bit of the unknown perhaps soaring isn't the right sport for
you.
  #75  
Old June 21st 10, 07:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cats
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Posts: 164
Default Parowan midair?

On Jun 21, 3:27*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
snip

FLARM is useless unless everyone is equipped. *


So surely is ADS-B?
  #76  
Old June 21st 10, 07:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default Parowan midair?

On Jun 21, 7:27*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 6/20/2010 8:23 PM, Andreas Maurer wrote:



On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 15:46:15 -0400, Mike Schumann
*wrote:


We don't need FLARM, we need MITRE's low cost ADS-B transceiver. *The
SSA needs to send a letter to Randy Babbitt using this accident as an
example of why we need a green light to get this unit certified ASAP.


Mike, believe me:
If you have ever flown half a year with FLARM with lots of gliders
around (e.g contest), you are going to want one NOW *- and you are not
going to have the patience to wait for the better solution that it
possibly available in 2012.


FLARM isnt't going to solve all of the problems, but I am pretty sure
that it would have prevented the incident we are talking about.


Andreas


FLARM is useless unless everyone is equipped. *That is NOT going to
happen in the US. *Low cost ADS-B could be available tomorrow if the FAA
would certify the units. *NAVWORX and MITRE have working prototypes that
could go into production overnight if we can get the FAA to get off
their but.

We need to get people to send letters to Randy Babbitt to get some top
level attention to this. *It also wouldn't hurt to copy Craig Fuller at
AOPA. *They should be pushing this a LOT more agresively than they have..

--
Mike Schumann


An extremely bad outcome of wanting "ADS-B technology" to be deployed
widely would be to end up with a need to mandatory equip with ADS-B
with none of the FLARM-equivalent glider-tuned traffic warnings
produced by the ADS-B receivers, no-compatibility with TCAS in fast
jets and airlines etc. and significant areas where there is no GBT
coverage to provide ADS-R (e.g. for glider on glider traffic awareness
on mountain ridges where there may be a mix of UAT and 1090ES ADS-B
equipped gliders).

This is all extremely early technology, I hope actions by the SSA and
others does not end up heading towards mandatory ADS-B carriage
without these and other issues being addressed. By all means go work
on testing and R&D stuff, but this stuff is far away from being wide
scale deployable in gliders that it is premature to suggest ADS-B as a
solution to practical real world problems like what happened at
Parowan. And I do not feel that overly-involving the federal
government in an attempt to get technology adopted in gliders is a
good idea. The free market should be quite capable of delivering
innovative ADS-B based technology to our cockpits, as has been done by
FLARM (in Europe and elsewhere) and PCAS manufacturers.

Darryl

  #77  
Old June 21st 10, 08:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,345
Default Parowan midair?

On Jun 21, 8:41*am, Bob 7U wrote:

I suppose the term 'low cost' is relative and depends upon whether you
compare it to the cost of your sailplane or your life.

Bob 7U


We have this exact same discussion on the rock climbing forums. The
corollary here is, how about all those $0.15 nuts and bolts in your
sailplane? Isn't your life worth more than that? Why aren't you using
$100, or better yet $1000 nuts and bolts custom manufactured and
individually tested and certified to the most stringent certification
standards?

Thanks, Bob K.
  #78  
Old June 21st 10, 08:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Posts: 1,965
Default Parowan midair?

On Jun 21, 2:10*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jun 21, 8:41*am, Bob 7U wrote:

I suppose the term 'low cost' is relative and depends upon whether you
compare it to the cost of your sailplane or your life.


Bob 7U


We have this exact same discussion on the rock climbing forums. The
corollary here is, how about all those $0.15 nuts and *bolts in your
sailplane? Isn't your life worth more than that? Why aren't you using
$100, or better yet $1000 nuts and bolts custom manufactured and
individually tested and certified to the most stringent certification
standards?

Thanks, Bob K.


not to mention trusting your life to some crazy guy who built a glider
in his garage...
  #79  
Old June 21st 10, 09:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Westbender
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Posts: 154
Default Parowan midair?

not to mention trusting your life to some crazy guy who built a glider
in his garage...



Now that was funny! I'm sure Bob will come back with a nice, sharp
response.


Back to the serious aspect of this discussion. I just don't see this
as "black or white" as most others do. If I were involved in a
collision, I'd be so puckered up the damaged ship would probably be
safer than my skill, which would be seriously degraded by stress. I
guess I'd be looking to put it down as soon as possible with my hand
not far from the canopy eject handle the entire time. That's mostly
because I'm a low-timer and conservative by nature. I'm sure that a
cooler head in this type of situation comes with experience. Who am I
to judge someone way more experienced than me flying in this
circumstance. Over hostile terrain no less. I'm glad no one was hurt.


Dave
  #80  
Old June 21st 10, 09:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Brad[_2_]
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Posts: 722
Default Parowan midair?

On Jun 21, 12:28*pm, Tony wrote:
On Jun 21, 2:10*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

On Jun 21, 8:41*am, Bob 7U wrote:


I suppose the term 'low cost' is relative and depends upon whether you
compare it to the cost of your sailplane or your life.


Bob 7U


We have this exact same discussion on the rock climbing forums. The
corollary here is, how about all those $0.15 nuts and *bolts in your
sailplane? Isn't your life worth more than that? Why aren't you using
$100, or better yet $1000 nuts and bolts custom manufactured and
individually tested and certified to the most stringent certification
standards?


Thanks, Bob K.


not to mention trusting your life to some crazy guy who built a glider
in his garage...


hey, I resemble that remark!
 




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