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tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...



 
 
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  #31  
Old July 12th 11, 07:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bdbng
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Posts: 3
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

BTW, at the risk of starting a religious war, rope breaks, spins, and
other dangerous maneuvers can be simulated realistically, at any
altitude and weather configuration in Condor.

Bullsh**.


We had an inexperienced guy in a tail heavy Phoebus get into PIO's on
tow. The first one was not too bad. The second one had him climbing at
45 degrees. On the third he went over the top. Certainly no higher
than 300'. The tow rope broke, saving the tow pilot's life. Those of
us watching thought we were looking at a dead man. He pulled back on
the stick and while headed straight down he rolled 180 degrees and
pulled out 10 feet above the runway, landing down wind. Later I asked
him how he pulled that off. His answer: "I've flown a lot of
aerobatics in Microsoft Flight Simulator". !!!

Brian Bange
  #32  
Old July 12th 11, 08:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
RL
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Posts: 66
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

Except in very strong wind conditions a rope break at or above 200' is
hardly an "emergency". It is a circumstance that requires immediate
action, but appropriate training should make this a routine maneuver,
executed with confidence. A real 150’ rope break becomes a true
emergency at many airports where the glider is going to land off-
airport and the outcome is not certain. The level of training needs to
overcome the “surprise” factor to minimize the delay in reaction
should a rope break take place.

Bob
  #33  
Old July 13th 11, 12:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andreas Maurer
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Posts: 345
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 06:43:09 -0700 (PDT), Frank Paynter
wrote:

Hi Frank,

Well, there is a huge body of evidence from GA, airline, corporate
aviation, and military aviation that indicates that ground-based
simulation is very a very effective training tool for emergency
procedures


True.
But maybe you noticed that the hardware these guys are using is not
exactly in your $300 price range....

A student can practice realistic rope breaks in Condor by having an
assistant hit the release unexpectedly, just as in real life. The
student must perform exactly the same functions (lower the nose,
establish a bank in the proper direction, look for an appropriate
landing area, etc) as in real life.




In a real-life rope break, there are two things that save lifes:
1. Before you take off, have a plan. Obvously. Know exactly what you
are going to do - always. Pretty simple to teach.

2. Situation awareness
This is what cannot be simulated on a PC.
Tell the student pilot to lower the nose after release or row break,
and stabilize the glider. I think the US term is "Fly the plane".
so far, so simple - no simulator necessary to teach that.

But now comes the difficult part.
I'd like to list just a couple of points that come to my mind that
need to be judged correctly to get a safe landing:

What's the correct nose-down attitude in reference to the horizon if
there's rising area ahead? Tall trees?
Judge the exact position.
Judge the wind.
Turbulence?

Decide about the maneuver that is going to get you down safely:
Sufficient runway ahead to land safely? Return to runway, shortened
traffic circuit, safe off-field landing ahead?
Or even a controlled crash if a safe landing is not warranted?

Once the pilot has decided which maneuver to fly, he needs to execute
it properly. As we are discussing turns to return to the runway:
What's the direction of the first turn, how many degrees are necessary
for that first turn, when does one start the turn back towards the
runway, what's the correct speed, when to extrend the airbrakes?


All these points need precise judgement - which can only be done
visually. Ever tried to judge heights and distances in Condor? Close
to impossible - at close range things look completely different in
real life.
Quick scanning is absolutely necessary - the pilot needs to turn the
head to get a quick overview. When flying his approach (especially if
he flies a teardrop turn at low altitude in order to turn back to the
runway) he needs to be able to look back over his shoulder and keep
the glider under control at the same time. He must be able to quickly
turn his head, scan horizon position, airspeed indicator, yaw string,
then look back to the runway, judge his position and his turning
radius, and so on.

The ability to do this correctly is going to save his life. This is a
technique that must be practiced.
Simulate this on a 22" screen? No way. You need a dome with a 360
degrees field of view to simulate this.



Any instructor knows that nearly all pilots who are flying a turn at
low altitude tend to keep the wings as level as possible and use the
rudder to turn the nose into the desired heading - the yaw string is
pointing inwards in such a turn. Get too slow, and even the most
benign glider will spin immediately - such an uncoordinated turn is
the classic spin entry maneuvre.

One is never going to see such a mistake on a 22" screen - the
experience on a PC sim is simply missing the imaginary fear that a
wing tip could touch the ground (this is the cause for such an
uncoordinated turn: The pilot wants to keep the lower wing tip as far
as possible from the ground, therefore turns too shallow, therefore he
has to use something else to get his nose pointed into the desired
direction: Voila, the rudder! Usually he's task saturated in such a
situation - he simply does not recognize that the yaw string points
into the wrong direction).

It is incredible what mistakes are being made by task-saturated
pilots, even if there's an instructor on board.
None of these mistakes are made at the desk, steering a glider on a
22" screen with a $50 joystick, a keyboard and no fear of dying.


So the two most important things cannot be taught on a PC sim:
- Precise judgement of the situation, situation awareness
- Fly the plane under severe stress

Of course one can show the student pilot the possible maneuvres on a
PC sim - but as long as there's no access to a flight simulator with a
360 degrees field of view and photo-realistic graphics, the student
pilot MUST experience a rope break simulation in a real glider.



I can pretty much guarantee you
that the first few times the student does this, their reaction will be
indistinguishable from their reaction in real life.


In my experience - they stay cool, fly whatever maneuvre they have
decided, and try again if it does not work.
In real life they are scared to death and make mistakes they'd never
make on a PC.

Moreover, the
situation in Condor can be easily configured so the student has no
hope of returning to the field, and therefore must accomplish a safe
off-airport landing - try that in real life!


In real life the pilot thinks about the value of the glider he's about
to trash - voila, stress! Won't happen on the PC.

After 10 or 20 (or 100)
SRBs in Condor, a student will be very well-drilled in rope-break
procedures for a wide variety of situations, much more so than a
corresponding real life only student who typically is exposed to only
a few well-planned and very safe SRBs.


..... and after he's done some real-life rope-break procedures.
I think that a PC based simulator like Condor could support real-life
training, but never replace it.


For less than $300 (assuming you already have a decent PC) you can
have a training tool that has been shown over and over again to be
effective in saving lives. Need I say more?


What is effective in saving lives is to teach the student pilot the
correct techniques to master such a situation. Show him in a realistic
enviroment how to keep things under control.

Let him experience that even a rope-break at a critical height is
something that gives him enough time to assess a situation and make a
decision for a safe landing. Once he has got the feeling that he is
always in control, he'll loose most of his nervousness - stay calm,
and fly a lot better.

This self-confidence can only be taught inflight, not in a $300 PC
game on a 22" screen.

I am pretty sure that this could also be taught in a simulator with a
cockpit and a view system that closele resembles reality - but then we
are talking about an impressive five-digit $ sum.


I tend to think that such a sum would better be used to (re-)train
instructors to perform *safe* rope-break training.
I have to admit that some of the stories I read in this thread made my
hairs stand up.



Andreas

  #34  
Old July 13th 11, 12:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony V
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Posts: 175
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On 7/12/2011 7:24 PM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Hi Frank,

Well, there is a huge body of evidence from GA, airline, corporate
aviation, and military aviation that indicates that ground-based
simulation is very a very effective training tool for emergency
procedures


True.
But maybe you noticed that the hardware these guys are using is not
exactly in your $300 price range....


When you tell a student to push the nose down when he's already seeing
individual leaves in stunning detail..... well, I'd like to see that
simulated effectively. As others have said - there's a place for both.

Tony V.
  #35  
Old July 13th 11, 12:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony V
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Posts: 175
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On 7/12/2011 12:41 PM, Andy wrote:

Forgot point number 3. You can't just point the nose down and start your
turn back to the airport.


You have to wait until you have enough
airspeed to pull that off.


Why? If the simulated break is made at normal tow speed there is
sufficient speed to start the turn immediately.


Because most students don't start the turn immediately. Tye typical
reaction time is 3 seconds - with the nose high. The nose pointing down
does not necessarily mean that you can turn safely is all that I'm saying.

Tony
  #36  
Old July 13th 11, 01:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 13, 11:36*am, Tony V wrote:
On 7/12/2011 12:41 PM, Andy wrote:

Forgot point number 3. You can't just point the nose down and start your
turn back to the airport.


You have to wait until you have enough
airspeed to pull that off.


Why? *If the simulated break is made at normal tow speed there is
sufficient speed to start the turn immediately.


Because most students don't start the turn immediately. Tye typical
reaction time is 3 seconds - with the nose high. The nose pointing down
does not necessarily mean that you can turn safely is all that I'm saying..


That's far too long a reaction time and can surely be reduced.

The nose pointed up doesn't mean you can't turn safely. A typical
glass glider with 40 knot stall being towed at 65 - 70 knots can do a
chandelle[1] to accomplish the turn, for heaven's sake!

Stall/spin isn't about nose attitude, it isn't about speed, it's ALL
about stick position.

[1] "wing over" to USians I think -- I don't mean hammerhead/stall
turn.
  #37  
Old July 13th 11, 02:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
glider LT
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Posts: 3
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On 7/11/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:
On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...wiadomosc.html
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomos...wym_Targu.html


While there will be some interesting discussions about the
safety/usefulness of this type of emergency training, I've recently
become a fan. Last weekend we had the a Pawnee suddenly become a glider
when the engine seized at 800' on tow. Fortunately, we had a well
trained glider pilot in the tow plane, and he made a successful 180 to
downwind dead-stick landing. The glider flew a full pattern to normal
landing.

We are grateful that 2 pilots well-trained in emergency procedures had
such a successful and safe outcome.
  #38  
Old July 13th 11, 02:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T[_2_]
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Posts: 187
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 12, 6:06*pm, glider LT wrote:
On 7/11/2011 5:38 PM, wrote:





On July 7, 2011 at Nowy Targ in southern Poland, glider Puchacz
crashed during training flight 2/3 mile from the airport. The
instructor (~64-67) and the student pilot (~18-19) are dead. *It was a
tow rope brake practice flight with down wind turn for down wind
landing from about 130-150 m of altitude (400 feet).
What can we learn from this?
Are these training flights mendatory under FAA rules?
Can pilot request opt-out from "rope brake" during Biennial Flight
Review to avoid getting killed?
I remember once during BFR the instructor pulled the release on me in
the Blanik at about 200 feet, I had to do 180 turn and land down wind
from very low altitude. I think it was dangerous and unnecessary even
for an experienced pilot as me. Andre


http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne...bowca-w-nowym-...
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomos...Szybowiec_rozb...


While there will be some interesting discussions about the
safety/usefulness of this type of emergency training, I've recently
become a fan. Last weekend we had the a Pawnee suddenly become a glider
when the engine seized at 800' on tow. Fortunately, we had a well
trained glider pilot in the tow plane, and he made a successful 180 to
downwind dead-stick landing. The glider flew a full pattern to normal
landing.

We are grateful that 2 pilots well-trained in emergency procedures had
such a successful and safe outcome.


I was towing in the Pawnee with a student pilot, solo, in the 2-33. I
experienced a strong vibration that appeared to generate from the
engine. We were climbing through about 150ft AGL, and climbing the
engine responding to the throttle but not reducing the vibration. I
kept the student on tow until 250 ft AGL and calmly called on the
radio, "call sign, release, release, release". The student pulled his
release and executed a perfect 180 to a downwind landing, I reduced
power, completed my own low downwind, watched him safely land and then
turned close in to land into the wind.

A safe outcome was never in doubt knowing the student had received the
training required. I just had to hope that the engine would hold
together for me to get the student to a safe return altitude.

I had a stuck valve on the Pawnee that received the proper maintenance
before continued towing.

T
  #39  
Old July 13th 11, 08:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cats
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Posts: 164
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 12, 3:11*am, Tony V wrote:
snip

Forgot point number 3. You can't just point the nose down and start your
turn back to the airport. You have to wait until you have enough
airspeed to pull that off. Something that gets drilled into every winch
student (I hope).


Interesting. In my own glider a typical tow speed is somewhat above
best l/d speed so the first things would be to lift the nose slightly
and trim for approach speed. It's a typical 15m unflapped glass
glider so 60 knots is fine, typical tow speeds are 70-80 knots.

  #40  
Old July 13th 11, 12:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 194
Default tow rope brake practice crash, what can we learn...

On Jul 13, 3:01*am, Cats wrote:
On Jul 12, 3:11*am, Tony V wrote:
snip



Forgot point number 3. You can't just point the nose down and start your
turn back to the airport. You have to wait until you have enough
airspeed to pull that off. Something that gets drilled into every winch
student (I hope).


Interesting. *In my own glider a typical tow speed is somewhat above
best l/d speed so the first things would be to lift the nose slightly
and trim for approach speed. *It's a typical 15m unflapped glass
glider so 60 knots is fine, typical tow speeds are 70-80 knots.


Yes, tow speeds are usually greater than approach speeds.....this
means simply that you have "energy" in speed....

In practice at altitude, we often make a 180 degree turn off of tow,
with no loss of altitude.....and just a slight loss of speed...as you
say, staying at or above best l/d speed..We can even do a gently
climbing turn off tow, at altitude, and gain maybe 100' while slowing
from tow speed to best l/d or even slow to min sink. But I would not
recommend this near the ground.

Another point to consider, the faster the speed in a turn, the larger
the radius of turn......there may be some benefit to a slightly slower
turn (but not too slow).

We know that angle of attack is the concern in stall avoidance....any
stall spin accident off of low rope break has to have had too much
angle of attack, one way or another....This means too much stick back
pressure....This is why I like to see an obvious stick forward and
nose pitch down reaction upon rope break.....also smooth control
inputs....

But speed (suffecient speed) is also necessary for good control,
handling, dealing with gusts etc.

I think you did miss one slight concept however, that when we are on
tow, our attitude is slightly more nose up at a given speed, than what
the nose attidude would be at the same speed while not on
tow.......thrust is the variable ....

Most gliders tow with a slight nose up attitude....So if you release
from tow, and maintain the same nose attitude, or even raise the nose
further as you suggest, I think you will find a rapid decrease in
airspeed...not to mention that the thought of raising the nose while
turning, while low, just sends shivers down my spine.....

On a rope break, I instruct my students to establish the same nose
down attitude that would be used in a "normal" pattern. I find that
making the turn seems to work out well for most pilots, but the
decision making after the completion of the 180 is often
lacking......they do not recognize the problems associated with a down
wind landing...(use of spoiler and need for slip for instance)

Cookie
 




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