Best Club class glider

Tim,

I think you meant to say "standard class", right? Club Class (as in the
FAI Club Class) does allow flaps, and many gliders with flaps are on the
list (e.g. DG-200, ASW-20...). And the Mosquito is on the list:

http://www.fai.org/component/phocado...3198:handicaps

It has a handicap of 1.07, like the DG-200, LS-3, etc. Not advocating
DG/LS equipment, just pointing out the handicap...

--Stefan

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:50:39 -0600, Tim Mara
wrote:

Mosquito is a great ship but it's not in the club class (it's flapped)
and
would however fit into the European "Racing class" where they do allow
flapped gliders.....( also mentioned was the .Mini-Nimbus but it's a poor
comparison and lacks many good features of the Mosquito!)
Hence, the Hornet is the real 1st choice for "club" class being similar
to
the Mosquito but without flaps and has a different airfoil as well......
I've owned and flown both the Hornet and Mosquito and neither has the
"exceptions" of the rest like manual hook-up's, small ineffective dive
brakes, all flying tails, lift off canopies, small uncomfortable
cockpits or
infamous DG/LS support (lack of) issues .it's just really hard to pick
on
these terrific Glasflugel ships.......
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com






--
Stefan Murry

At 20:13 12 December 2011, David Reitter wrote:
if you're considering an Astir, there's an expensive AD out on it.


The Astir AD is only an issue if you are under FAA rules. In Europe the
AD was mandatory in 1991 (!) and so is ancient history.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:31:12 +0000, Paul T wrote:

Thanks for the opinions so far - just to clarify I would like to get an
idea of the pro's and con's of each ship (let's discount things like
state of trailer instruments ect.)

Two comments: the first may save you some searching. The second is pure
opinion.

- ASW-19, ASW-20, Pegase 101 and 90
It is worth remembering that all these have essentially the same cockpit,
so if you're comfortable in one, you'll be comfortable in the others.
Differences:
- the 19, 20 and Pegase 101 all have Hoteliers. The Pegase 90
is later than the more common 101 and has automatic connecting
controls.

- The 20C and Peg 90 have lifting panels as standard. I'm not sure
about the 20F and Peg 101. The others didn't but quite a lot of
them have had a lifting panel fitted.

- Std Libelle
I fly one and love it, but if you have wide shoulders you may not fit: it
has a rather narrow cockpit though length generally isn't an issue. All
controls are self-connecting except the ailerons, and they are easy to
connect. The glider is light and easy to rig. All-round vis is about the
best there is. I can see my rudder waggling even when strapped in. Its
easy to fly, thermals very well and is fairly spin resistant but you must
fly it accurately: the teardrop fuselage x-section generates a lot of
drag when yawed, but OTOH it comes down like a sack of anvils when
slipped. Two caveats: the brakes are weak, which makes it a little harder
to land tidily since it does float on, and it is *ESSENTIAL* to get a
good briefing from an experienced Libelle driver before you winch it for
the first time. Glasfaser, who took over type support when Glasflugel
folded, are friendly, helpful, and a pleasure to do business with.

HTH


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
easy to go look at quite a few gliders.

If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
(yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
be equal but..)

After that you can read Derek Piggott's recommendations and Dick
Johnson's Flight Test Evaluations for some guidance ( they're all on
the SSA website but you need a membership to access them, the Standard
Cirrus B test is available at standardcirrus.org)

Find out which ships you fit in comfortably. As I said above this
should be easy for you as examples of every type you listed will
likely be present at a club not too far away from you. One of the
reasons I didn't buy a Libelle was that I found it too cramped across
the shoulders. A lot of people in my club wouldn't fly the Standard
Jantar we had because they found it too uncomfortable. You never
really know until you try one on for size.

The condition of the glider, particularly the finish is really
important. This applies both to the actual performance (as opposed to
the performance measured when new) and to future maintenance and
resale costs.

As to specific gliders I can speak about the Standard Jantar, ASW-15B
and ASW19/19B from personal experience.

Standard Jantar: The cockpit is long but not too wide (having long
arms is a plus for Jantar pilots). It has a fairly high wing loading
even without water ballast. The landing gear handle can be awkward to
operate as it has to be moved quite far back and you're elbow may have
trouble fitting between you're ribcage and the cockpit side if you're
average height. It stalls and spins quite sharply but recovers quickly
(at least our Standard 1 did and it's the only one I've flown).
Visibility is alright but not great. The large panel and forward
canopy frame restrict things a bit (doesn't apply to the 3 of course).
Airbrakes are more than adequate. Rigging is not too bad. They were
smart enough to provide pins on top of the spars and a lever to fit on
them and pull the wings together just like a Libelle. As far as I'm
concerned EVERY glider that uses a single main pin and cantilevered
pins on the spar ends which fit into bearings in the opposing wing
roots should have this. I curse Grob's engineers every time I have to
deal with one of the club Astir's because they didn't do this and it
makes thing much much harder than they should be.

ASW-15B: (what I currently own and fly) Adequately roomy cockpit for
me (5 ft. 10 and 170lbs.) but not as roomy as the ASW-19 or Cirrus.
Very docile stall spin characteristics, extremely strong airbrakes
(flying at a gross weight of 730 lbs. full airbrakes and a 50 degree
dive doesn't even get me to maneuvering speed) and it can come down
fast using a forward slip. Climbs really well but won't penetrate like
a 19 or Jantar unless it's loaded with water. With the forward hook
and large rudder aerotow is easy. I've never tried the offset C of G
hook. Rigging is easy. The aileron and airbrake connections are easily
accessed and SEEN through the top hatch and the elevator is automatic.
The all flying tail is well designed and doesn't make the glider
twitchy at all. Nice light and responsive ailerons with little
friction. Technical and parts support has been good too. The large
single piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain though.

I live in Canada so a huge factor in my deciding what to buy was the
location of the glider. The fact that the 15 I bought wasn't 3000
miles away or in another country was a major point in it's favor.
There's only about 600 gliders in the whole country and the majority
of them are on the other side of the continent from me. That's not a
problem you're going to have though.

If I were in your place I'd probably go for an ASW-19 or 19B. Most of
the good points of the 15 plus a bigger cockpit, better penetration
and more convenient canopy opening mechanism. The airbrakes aren't as
strong (even with the double blades), the control access hatch is a
bit smaller and the elevator isn't automatic but that's about it for
downsides. It looks beautiful and flies beautiful.

You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
easy to go look at quite a few gliders.

If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
(yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
be equal but..)

After that you can read Derek Piggott's recommendations and Dick
Johnson's Flight Test Evaluations for some guidance ( they're all on
the SSA website but you need a membership to access them, the Standard
Cirrus B test is available at standardcirrus.org)

Find out which ships you fit in comfortably. As I said above this
should be easy for you as examples of every type you listed will
likely be present at a club not too far away from you. One of the
reasons I didn't buy a Libelle was that I found it too cramped across
the shoulders. A lot of people in my club wouldn't fly the Standard
Jantar we had because they found it too uncomfortable. You never
really know until you try one on for size.

The condition of the glider, particularly the finish is really
important. This applies both to the actual performance (as opposed to
the performance measured when new) and to future maintenance and
resale costs.

As to specific gliders I can speak about the Standard Jantar, ASW-15B
and ASW19/19B from personal experience.

Standard Jantar: The cockpit is long but not too wide (having long
arms is a plus for Jantar pilots). It has a fairly high wing loading
even without water ballast. The landing gear handle can be awkward to
operate as it has to be moved quite far back and your elbow may have
trouble fitting between your ribcage and the cockpit side if you're
average height. It stalls and spins quite sharply but recovers quickly
(at least our Standard 1 did and it's the only one I've flown).
Visibility is alright but not great. The large panel and forward
canopy frame restrict things a bit (doesn't apply to the 3 of course).
Airbrakes are more than adequate. Rigging is not too bad. They were
smart enough to provide pins on top of the spars and a lever to fit on
them and pull the wings together just like a Libelle. As far as I'm
concerned EVERY glider that uses a single main pin and cantilevered
pins on the spar ends which fit into bearings in the opposing wing
roots should have this. I curse Grob's engineers every time I have to
deal with one of the club Astirs because they didn't do this and it
makes things much much harder than they should be.

ASW-15B: (what I currently own and fly) Adequately roomy cockpit for
me (5 ft. 10 and 170lbs.) but not as roomy as the ASW-19 or Cirrus.
Very docile stall spin characteristics, extremely strong airbrakes
(flying at a gross weight of 730 lbs., full airbrakes and a 50 degree
dive doesn't even get me to maneuvering speed) and it can come down
fast using a forward slip (I routinely do spot landings without using
the airbrakes at all). Climbs really well but won't penetrate like
a 19 or Jantar unless it's loaded with water. With the forward hook
and large rudder aerotow is easy. I've never used the offset C of G
hook. Rigging is easy. The aileron and airbrake connections are easily
accessed and SEEN through the top hatch and the elevator is automatic.
The all flying tail is well designed and doesn't make the glider
twitchy at all. Nice, light and responsive ailerons with little
friction. Technical and parts support has been good too. The large
single piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain though.

I live in Canada so a huge factor in my deciding what to buy was the
location of the glider. The fact that the 15 I bought wasn't 3000
miles away or in another country was a major point in it's favor.
There's only about 600 gliders in the whole country and the majority
of them are on the other side of the continent from me. That's not a
problem you're going to have though.

If I were in your place I'd probably go for an ASW-19 or 19B. Most of
the good points of the 15 plus a bigger cockpit, better penetration
and more convenient canopy opening mechanism. The airbrakes aren't as
strong (even with the double blades), the control access hatch is a
bit smaller and the elevator isn't automatic but that's about it for
downsides. It looks beautiful and flies beautiful.

Some of the older (101) Pegs have a self-connecting elevator, which is
a feature that's well worth having. AFAIK it was a feature added
towards the date when they switching to the 90.

It also never surprises me that I fit them (5'3") as does a friend who
is 12" taller. I don't have the seat back right forward, he takes it
out and wears light-weight shoes.

At my height with slightly short legs poportionately, I get a great
view - the back of the canopy is after of my head, and I can just
about make out the tailplane of the glider.

However I've helped enough people with dodgy trailers and rigging aids
to agree that the condition of the trailer comes first. You can make
rigging aids if necessary - for example the chap with an Asir and no
wing root dolly made one as soon as we had used mine to help rig his
glider. He was a very tall guy so without one was having to stoop to
avoid banging the trailing edge on the top of the trailer door frame,
and yes - I think he had a bad back!

On Dec 14, 6:08*am, Hagbard Celine wrote:
You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
easy to go look at quite a few gliders.

If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
(yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
be equal but..)
snip

In the UK that would probably mean flying whatever G Dale flies!

You might find some of Derek Pigott's reports online:
http://www.lakesgc.co.uk/mainwebpage...gmagazines.htm

However I don't think the archive is indexed, so it might take a lot
of time and dedication to find them.

Get a Lak17a. 1/3 the price and 99% the performance on paper. Love mine...

Sean (F2)

On Dec 14, 3:27*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
Get a Lak17a. *1/3 the price and 99% the performance on paper. *Love mine...

Sean (F2)

Lak17a is certainly a nice glider but it does not fit in the club
class handicap range.

At 21:46 14 December 2011, Tony wrote:
On Dec 14, 3:27=A0pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
Get a Lak17a. =A01/3 the price and 99% the performance on paper.
=A0Love
=
mine...

Sean (F2)

Lak17a is certainly a nice glider but it does not fit in the club
class handicap range.


Can I really get a LAK17a for £15K - where? where?
Then all I'd have is an uncompetitive ship for the 15 and 18m nationals!!