Is the 787 a failure ?

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

People around here complain that they aren't ready for the next
power
failure. Pick one most suited to your power problems.

My need for a computer UPS went away when I switched from desktops to
laptops. I still use an external keyboard on the pull-out tray and a
large second monitor on the shelf. Spare batteries for the common
Dells are cheaper than UPS replacement batteries.
http://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Li.../dp/B0011X5I7U

Laptops usually consume much less power than desktops and so last
longer on batteries. Mine also run off a square-pulse UPS output
though apparently not all brands will.

I trimmed out the political groups.
jsw

Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

People around here complain that they aren't ready for the next
power
failure. Pick one most suited to your power problems.

My need for a computer UPS went away when I switched from desktops to
laptops. I still use an external keyboard on the pull-out tray and a
large second monitor on the shelf. Spare batteries for the common
Dells are cheaper than UPS replacement batteries.
http://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Li.../dp/B0011X5I7U

Laptops usually consume much less power than desktops and so last
longer on batteries. Mine also run off a square-pulse UPS output
though apparently not all brands will.

I trimmed out the political groups.


Some of the micro desktops are laptops without a display or
keyboard. I have three that need new electrolytics.

--

Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week.

On Mar 24, 8:58*am, "Jim Wilkins" wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in ...











Jim Wilkins wrote:

Just so you know, my chemistry degree is academic and a very good
general science foundation but my electronics education came from
the
Army, the lab bench and the factory floor, testing and repairing
medical and EV batteries for example.

Many times I've been the unfortunate designated stuckee who
connects
Engineering to Production, turns dreams into practical working
hardware, and has to tolerate abuse and resentment from both sides.

* Been there, done that. *You have my sympathy.

The production ladies became very cooperative once they realized I
would listen to and respect their advice. The male Production Manager
was another story. That is a revolving-door job like programmer, ad
copy writer and salesman, and I'm not dumb enough to take it on,
though I may have made them feel threatened that I might. In a high
tech organization the staff with a business rather than scientific
education always seemed nervous and defensive about their job
security. They may bluster and pretend like TZ but like him they
can't
hide their ignorance for long.

Yep, Jim Wilkins brought 20 solid years of fussing like a worthless 5
year-old. (I bet he's proud)

| ...
| Part of the lithium-ion safety problem, says Elton Cairns,
| a faculty senior scientist at Lawrence Berkeley National
| Laboratory, in California, involves the electrolytes in the
| batteries. "We're using mixtures of organic solvents that
| are quite flammable and quite volatile," he says of today's
| lithium-ion electrolytes. "In my view, that's just asking
| for trouble." And with enough heat, oxygen gets liberated
| from a battery's metal-oxide anode. "There you've got all
| the makings of a fire," he says. And a flame front that
| doesn't need anything outside the battery to sustain itself
| is very hard to extinguish. That's why lithium-ion battery
| fires can get so big (like the one that knocked out a U.S.
| Navy minisub in 2008), he says.
| ...
http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/fuel-cells/can-signal-processing-stop-battery-fires

| ...
| The Advanced SEAL Delivery System (ASDS) submersible
| suffered major damage during a fire Nov. 9 while the craft
| was recharging its lithium-ion batteries at a special base
| in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. No one was severely hurt in the
| accident, but the fire burned for several hours before it
| was extinguished.
|
| Although an investigation still hasn't determined what
| caused the fire, the Navy estimates repairs to the 60-ton
| craft would cost $237 million, or $180 million more than
| the craft's operating budget, and take nearly three years
| to complete.
| ...
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2009/07/navy_seal_minisub_072709w/

--bks

|
| Boeing today conducted a flight test on LN86, the aircraft
| being used for 787 tests, which the company says were
| unrelated to a fix for the aircraft's lithium-ion batteries.
|
| The aircraft, also known by its Boeing production
| designation as ZA272, originally was expected to make a
| test flight on March 30, but for unknown reasons this was
| cancelled. Boeing says the "flight is unrelated to the
| ongoing 787 battery certification testing. The battery
| certification demonstration flight will take place in the
| coming days."
|
| The airframer last flew ZA272 when it conducted a
| functional test flight on March 25.
|
| The interim testing appears to be focused on verifying the
| functionality of specific systems that could play a key
| role in the upcoming battery demonstration flight, as well
| as other electrical systems unrelated to the battery
| modification. A revised power panel design was expected to
| be tested as part of the canceled March 30 flight from
| Paine Field at Boeing's Everett, Wash., production facility.
|
| The power panel has been the source of early in-service
| issues with the 787, as revealed by launch operator All
| Nippon Airways, which indicated the unit had been the cause
| of erroneous error messages on the engine indicating and
| crew alerting system during events in March, April and June
| 2012. Investigators found that a short in one of the power
| panel circuit boards caused the April event.
| ...
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_04_01_2013_p0-564734.xml

--bks

|
| Don't expect FAA certification of Boeing's lithium-ion
| battery fix for the 787 Dreamliner any sooner than April
| 24, the end of a planned two-day "investigative hearing" on
| the batteries by the National Transportation Safety Board.
|
| That's partly because the Federal Aviation Administration,
| and its process for certifying the Dreamliner's troubled
| battery system, will on the agenda for the hearing.
| ...
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2013/04/02/ntsb-to-grill-witnesses-on-787.html

--bks

|
| A U.S. Senate committee is hosting a hearing to discuss
| ongoing investigations into battery issues aboard the
| Boeing 787.
|
| The Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation has
| scheduled the hearing for April 16, when the committee will
| also hear about the Federal Aviation Administration's
| efforts to implement safety provisions in FAA
| authorizations.
|
| The committee will receive testimony from Michael Huerta,
| administrator of the FAA; Deborah Hersman, chairman of the
| National Transportation Safety Board; Gerald Dillingham,
| director of civil aviation issues for the Government
| Accountability Office; and Jeffery Guzzetti, assistant
| inspector general for the Department of Transportation
| Office of Inspector General.
| ...
http://www.gsabusiness.com/news/47258-u-s-senate-committee-to-hear-update-on-boeing-787-investigation?rss=0

--bks

|
| Boeing Co. (BA)'s effort to get its troubled 787 Dreamliner
| back in the air is headed for a challenging final hurdle:
| It needs approval from the U.S. agency that's already been
| burned by signing off on the plane's safety.
| ...
| The FAA isn't discussing its plans for deciding whether the
| battery fix is satisfactory beyond saying that it won't
| sign off on the Dreamliner's return to commercial flight
| until the new battery system is deemed safe, according to
| Laura Brown, a spokeswoman. She declined to comment on
| whether the FAA is under any political pressure.
|
| The FAA's role in approving the cells for the Dreamliner in
| 2007 will be the focus of a two-day NTSB hearing starting
| April 23. The batteries were certified under "special
| conditions," which are rules the FAA creates for new
| technology.
|
| Another NTSB hearing starts today on the use of lithium-ion
| batteries in transportation, and next week, the Dreamliner
| probably will come up when the Senate Commerce, Science and
| Transportation Committee holds a hearing to discuss the
| FAA's progress on safety initiatives.
| ...
| [Transportation Secretary] LaHood, 67, a former seven-term
| Republican member of the U.S. House of Representatives from
| Illinois, has played a prominent role since the
| Dreamliner's batteries came under scrutiny with a Jan. 7
| fire on a Japan Airlines 787.
|
| At a Jan. 11 news conference, he and FAA chief Michael
| Huerta declared the plane safe. Less than a week afterward,
| an ANA 787's battery began smoldering and spewing vapor
| above Japan, prompting an emergency landing and then the
| grounding.
|
| LaHood's involvement in the 787 decision escalates pressure
| on the FAA, said John Nance, a Seattle-based
| aviation-safety consultant and former commercial pilot.
| ...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-10/boeing-faces-last-hurdle-for-dreamliner-with-no-rush-faa.html

--bks

Discussing an NTSB meeting to be held on 23,24 April:
|
| National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) chief Deborah
| Hersman said Friday an upcoming hearing should reveal "a
| lot more about the certification and design process" that
| Boeing and aviation regulators used for the 787 Dreamliner
| battery system before it went into service.
|
| After that, she said in an interview, "If we believe there
| are changes that need to be made, we will pursue that."
|
| Hersman said the NTSB will review Boeing's design and risk
| analysis and the Federal Aviation Administration's
| certification process in its final investigation report,
| which should be issued by the end of the year.
| ...
| She declined to comment specifically on Boeing's proposed
| battery fix. The NTSB is charged with assessing safety and
| making recommendations, but the FAA sets the rules of
| aviation, and it's the agency that grounded the Boeing jets.
|
| "Boeing has to identify and properly mitigate the risks to
| the FAA's satisfaction," Hersman said. Lifting the
| grounding "really is up to the FAA."
| ...
| Hersman acknowledged that it's a challenge to identify the
| root cause of the internal short known to have started the
| Boston battery fire because the battery was severely
| damaged.
|
| In searching for that cause, her experts are conducting
| weeks-long tests on other batteries produced by Boeing's
| supplier, GS Yuasa of Japan.
|
| "We have to let the investigation play out," Hersman said.
|
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020769388_ntsbhersmanxml.html

--bks

On Apr 13, 9:30*am, (Bradley K. Sherman) wrote:
Discussing an NTSB meeting to be held on 23,24 April:
*|
*| National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) chief Deborah
*| Hersman said Friday an upcoming hearing should reveal "a
*| lot more about the certification and design process" that
*| Boeing and aviation regulators used for the 787 Dreamliner
*| battery system before it went into service.
*|
*| After that, she said in an interview, "If we believe there
*| are changes that need to be made, we will pursue that."
*|
*| Hersman said the NTSB will review Boeing's design and risk
*| analysis and the Federal Aviation Administration's
*| certification process in its final investigation report,
*| which should be issued by the end of the year.
*| ...
*| She declined to comment specifically on Boeing's proposed
*| battery fix. The NTSB is charged with assessing safety and
*| making recommendations, but the FAA sets the rules of
*| aviation, and it's the agency that grounded the Boeing jets.
*|
*| "Boeing has to identify and properly mitigate the risks to
*| the FAA's satisfaction," Hersman said. Lifting the
*| grounding "really is up to the FAA."
*| ...
*| Hersman acknowledged that it's a challenge to identify the
*| root cause of the internal short known to have started the
*| Boston battery fire because the battery was severely
*| damaged.
*|
*| In searching for that cause, her experts are conducting
*| weeks-long tests on other batteries produced by Boeing's
*| supplier, GS Yuasa of Japan.
*|
*| "We have to let the investigation play out," Hersman said.
*|
http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2020769388_ntsbhersma...

* * --bks

Thank you for keeping us updated. I am sure the Japanese will want to
know what's going on too as they are big customers for the plane as
well as parts suppliers. Also, the idea of future battery use in
aircraft applications is a big one for industry folks to watch.

I wonder how hard it is just to put a new type of battery in there?

-- David

Maybe the secret really is NiMH.

(Thank you, thank you, try the chicken Parma, please tip your
waiter....)