Use of weak links

Currently the club that I am part of don't seem to be too concerned about
the safety aspects of using the correct weak links for winch launching
and I'd like to know how safe it is.

Currently I see two issues with the winch launching:

1. Sometimes a weak link is not used at all. The gliders are attached
directly to the winch cable (via drogue chute and various connectors).

2. When a weak link is included in the cable (only a primary link - no
reserve link) it is used for all glider types (G102 Astir, G103 Twin II,
ASW20, LS4) and I'm not even sure what the breaking strain is. My guess
is it's a Tost #1 black (1000 daN) weak link but that's hard to tell
because its weathered and the protective sleeve obscures the Tost number.
The weak link is never changed between glider types.

According to what I have read (glider manuals and Tost manual) the
maximum winch load that should be exerted on most of the single seaters
is 500 daN and on the G103 Twin II it's 750 daN.

Am I being paranoid about safety? Are weak links not that important for
safe winch launching?

I took the matter up with the safety officer who said I need to take it
up with the CFI but I'd like to get some advice and input before I engage
with the CFI over the matter.
I'm new to soaring so I don't know it all.

Thanks

On Jun 2, 4:43*am, Paul wrote:
Currently the club that I am part of don't seem to be too concerned about
the safety aspects of using the correct weak links for winch launching
and I'd like to know how safe it is.

Currently I see two issues with the winch launching:

1. Sometimes a weak link is not used at all. The gliders are attached
directly to the winch cable (via drogue chute and various connectors).

2. When a weak link is included in the cable (only a primary link - no
reserve link) it is used for all glider types (G102 Astir, G103 Twin II,
ASW20, LS4) and I'm not even sure what the breaking strain is. My guess
is it's a Tost #1 black (1000 daN) weak link but that's hard to tell
because its weathered and the protective sleeve obscures the Tost number.
The weak link is never changed between glider types.

According to what I have read (glider manuals and Tost manual) the
maximum winch load that should be exerted on most of the single seaters
is 500 daN and on the G103 Twin II it's 750 daN.

Am I being paranoid about safety? Are weak links not that important for
safe winch launching?

I took the matter up with the safety officer who said I need to take it
up with the CFI but I'd like to get some advice and input before I engage
with the CFI over the matter.
I'm new to soaring so I don't know it all.

Thanks

Paul,
I am horrified to read this kind of message!! The weaklinks are an
essential safety device to avoid overstressing the glider. Please go
to http://www.tost.de/evers/edefault.htm and research the proper set-
up of the winch launch tackle.
There is a very active discussion group on the internet (winchdesign
on yahoo) trying to revive winch launching in the US in a safe way.
Any accident due to ignorance will give the insurance companies more
reason to choke off these effort! Contact me via PM off-line if you
need more info.
Uli Neumann

On Jun 2, 9:43*am, Paul wrote:
Currently the club that I am part of don't seem to be too concerned about
the safety aspects of using the correct weak links for winch launching
and I'd like to know how safe it is.

Currently I see two issues with the winch launching:

1. Sometimes a weak link is not used at all. The gliders are attached
directly to the winch cable (via drogue chute and various connectors).

2. When a weak link is included in the cable (only a primary link - no
reserve link) it is used for all glider types (G102 Astir, G103 Twin II,
ASW20, LS4) and I'm not even sure what the breaking strain is. My guess
is it's a Tost #1 black (1000 daN) weak link but that's hard to tell
because its weathered and the protective sleeve obscures the Tost number.
The weak link is never changed between glider types.

According to what I have read (glider manuals and Tost manual) the
maximum winch load that should be exerted on most of the single seaters
is 500 daN and on the G103 Twin II it's 750 daN.

Am I being paranoid about safety? Are weak links not that important for
safe winch launching?

I took the matter up with the safety officer who said I need to take it
up with the CFI but I'd like to get some advice and input before I engage
with the CFI over the matter.
I'm new to soaring so I don't know it all.

Thanks

Scary. I fly in the UK, we always use a weak link, what strength to
use is stated by the BGA:
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/tec.../weaklinks.pdf

As it shows, the black weak link is OK for the glass two-seaters but
not the single-seaters. (sorry it includes some Skylaunch stuff as
well)

Also:
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/saf...hlaunching.htm

BTW we never use a backup weak link - if you rig it so it doesn't take
a shock load when the main one fails then it will be taking strain
itself and so makes the weak link too strong, if you rig it so it's
not taking any strain then the shock load is likely to make it fail as
well.

On Jun 2, 4:43*am, Paul wrote:
Currently the club that I am part of don't seem to be too concerned about
the safety aspects of using the correct weak links for winch launching
and I'd like to know how safe it is.

Currently I see two issues with the winch launching:

1. Sometimes a weak link is not used at all. The gliders are attached
directly to the winch cable (via drogue chute and various connectors).

2. When a weak link is included in the cable (only a primary link - no
reserve link) it is used for all glider types (G102 Astir, G103 Twin II,
ASW20, LS4) and I'm not even sure what the breaking strain is. My guess
is it's a Tost #1 black (1000 daN) weak link but that's hard to tell
because its weathered and the protective sleeve obscures the Tost number.
The weak link is never changed between glider types.

According to what I have read (glider manuals and Tost manual) the
maximum winch load that should be exerted on most of the single seaters
is 500 daN and on the G103 Twin II it's 750 daN.

Am I being paranoid about safety? Are weak links not that important for
safe winch launching?

I took the matter up with the safety officer who said I need to take it
up with the CFI but I'd like to get some advice and input before I engage
with the CFI over the matter.
I'm new to soaring so I don't know it all.

Thanks

Here's hoping that the signal to noise ratio of a one on one
conversation with your CFI is better than that on r.a.s. (see
concurrent thread on altimeter settings, for example :-)).

Yours is a reasonable question that deserves a reasonable response.
My $0.02: you are not being 'paranoid' about anything.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 04:28:31 -0700, T8 wrote:
Here's hoping that the signal to noise ratio of a one on one
conversation with your CFI is better than that on r.a.s. (see concurrent
thread on altimeter settings, for example :-)).

Yours is a reasonable question that deserves a reasonable response. My
$0.02: you are not being 'paranoid' about anything.

-Evan Ludeman / T8


Thanks for the input everyone.

I'll take the matter up with my CFI and if not successful will stick to
aerotows while the rest of the club can risk their lives using the winch.

unbelievable! especially since a weak link is such an easy thing to add,
especially for ground launching!
you might be quite amazed at the numbers of pilots who call me asking what
the "proper weak link" should be when it is such a fundamental question and
one that every prospective student pilot needs to know even before taking a
practical test for a private pilot certificate!

using the TOST weak links is easy and the reserve weak link makes a lot of
sense since ALL weak links fatigue in time and become weaker before actually
breaking.the idea of the reserve weak link is so that when this happened and
the main weak link fails from fatigue the reserve link will hold under
normal loads and the launch is still completed without an actual failure but
the broke link is then visible for the next launch (we check these before
each launch .right? ((you are supposed to) and you know then to replace the
broken link before continuing with another launch. simple to use, and even
simpler to change from one weak link strength to another as needed by using
the notch connectors or similar attachment.you can see more on my website
page http://wingsandwheels.com/page30.htm

regards
Tim Mara

Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com


"T8" wrote in message
...
On Jun 2, 4:43 am, Paul wrote:
Currently the club that I am part of don't seem to be too concerned about
the safety aspects of using the correct weak links for winch launching
and I'd like to know how safe it is.

Currently I see two issues with the winch launching:

1. Sometimes a weak link is not used at all. The gliders are attached
directly to the winch cable (via drogue chute and various connectors).

2. When a weak link is included in the cable (only a primary link - no
reserve link) it is used for all glider types (G102 Astir, G103 Twin II,
ASW20, LS4) and I'm not even sure what the breaking strain is. My guess
is it's a Tost #1 black (1000 daN) weak link but that's hard to tell
because its weathered and the protective sleeve obscures the Tost number.
The weak link is never changed between glider types.

According to what I have read (glider manuals and Tost manual) the
maximum winch load that should be exerted on most of the single seaters
is 500 daN and on the G103 Twin II it's 750 daN.

Am I being paranoid about safety? Are weak links not that important for
safe winch launching?

I took the matter up with the safety officer who said I need to take it
up with the CFI but I'd like to get some advice and input before I engage
with the CFI over the matter.
I'm new to soaring so I don't know it all.

Thanks

Here's hoping that the signal to noise ratio of a one on one
conversation with your CFI is better than that on r.a.s. (see
concurrent thread on altimeter settings, for example :-)).

Yours is a reasonable question that deserves a reasonable response.
My $0.02: you are not being 'paranoid' about anything.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

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On Jun 2, 2:43*am, Paul wrote:
Currently the club that I am part of don't seem to be too concerned about
the safety aspects of using the correct weak links for winch launching
and I'd like to know how safe it is.

Currently I see two issues with the winch launching:

1. Sometimes a weak link is not used at all. The gliders are attached
directly to the winch cable (via drogue chute and various connectors).

2. When a weak link is included in the cable (only a primary link - no
reserve link) it is used for all glider types (G102 Astir, G103 Twin II,
ASW20, LS4) and I'm not even sure what the breaking strain is. My guess
is it's a Tost #1 black (1000 daN) weak link but that's hard to tell
because its weathered and the protective sleeve obscures the Tost number.
The weak link is never changed between glider types.

According to what I have read (glider manuals and Tost manual) the
maximum winch load that should be exerted on most of the single seaters
is 500 daN and on the G103 Twin II it's 750 daN.

Am I being paranoid about safety? Are weak links not that important for
safe winch launching?

I took the matter up with the safety officer who said I need to take it
up with the CFI but I'd like to get some advice and input before I engage
with the CFI over the matter.
I'm new to soaring so I don't know it all.

Thanks

You are not alone. There is a terrible casualness about weak links
out there.

The FAR's are clear. FAR 91.9(a) says if your glider has an Aircraft
Flight Manual which is part of the airworthiness documentation, you
must operate in compliance with that manual. AFM will mandate a
precise (+or- 10%) weak link for both aero tow AND winch launch. As a
practical matter, the best way to comply is to use a steel Tost weak
link. Knots and bits of rope just don't make the grade.

Not using the correct weak link is not only an FAR violation, it
violates common sense. Operators are NOT free to choose their own
weak links.

On Jun 2, 1:43*am, Paul wrote:
1. Sometimes a weak link is not used at all. The gliders are attached
directly to the winch cable (via drogue chute and various connectors).

I can only hope there is some part of the connect system has been
designed to function as the weak link and that you don't understand
how it was designed the work. The alternative is that your club has
decided it's quite ok for the wings to depart the glider during a
launch.

You must understand the cable system and know that it is compatible
with your glider's limitations before you accept a launch. Your
concerns are valid.

Andy

Am I being paranoid about safety? Are weak links not that important for
safe winch launching?

I took the matter up with the safety officer who said I need to take it
up with the CFI but I'd like to get some advice and input before I engage
with the CFI over the matter.
I'm new to soaring so I don't know it all.

Thanks

Not paranoid, and not only are the weak links CRITICAL for safe winch
launching, so is the rest of the preamble (called a 'strop', or
'trace'), which usually consists of the launch cable terminating with
a stiffened 3-10m section (air compressor hose slipped over rope/cable
is very commonly employed here) after the parachute, with the weaklink
on the winch side of the strop so the pilot to be able to see it (part
of pre-takeoff checklist for winchlaunch= weaklink type/condition...)
from the cockpit. Reason for the stiffened section is to keep it from
being able to snarl up on the landing gear or other non-releasable
bits of glider should the glider get jerked forward slightly before
actually launching.

http://www.tost.de/evers/eprod53/eprod53.htm -weaklinks
http://www.tost.de/evers/eprod54/eprod54.htm -preamble/chutes

There is no need to reinvent the wheel here, so hopefully your club
shapes up on this non-negotiable item so the safety nazis won't need
to descend upon your operation for an intervention since this can
screw us all... seriously.

-Paul (Hanson)

ps. your never 'know it all', but if you stay a perpetual student
you'll prolly get closer than anyone that thinks they do...

pps. If the 'safety officer' deferred this to the CFI, then what's the
point of a safety officer?
makes me think: "safety officer... ur doing it wrong"
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/26271
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/6727
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/6816
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1520
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1240

On Jun 2, 9:31*am, Andy wrote:
On Jun 2, 1:43*am, Paul wrote:

1. Sometimes a weak link is not used at all. The gliders are attached
directly to the winch cable (via drogue chute and various connectors).

I can only hope there is some part of the connect system has been
designed to function as the weak link and that you don't understand
how it was designed the work. *The alternative is that your club has
decided it's quite ok for the wings to depart the glider during a
launch.

You must understand the cable system and know that it is compatible
with your glider's limitations before you accept a launch. *Your
concerns are valid.

Andy

IMO it is easily a violation of FAR 91.13(a) careless and reckless
operation and if there is ever a launching incident that the FAA
investigates and it is found that NO weak link is being used when one
is required I am sure someone will end up with a suspended license at
best.

I hope Andy is correct and there really is a system in place that you
are just not aware of so discuss it with your CFI.

However it is important to understand that while the weak link is a
critical part of the launch system, it will take more that missing to
have “wings fall off the airplane” The weak link is just a portion of
the complete safety system. And while it may be possible to damage the
structure of the aircraft, mostly likely the Tow hook or related
structure, the wings will stay on the aircraft unless other safety
mechanisms are ignored as well.

Specifically what I am saying is that unless you are exceeding the
Maximum Winch Launch speed of the glider it should be impossible to
overstress the wings as the wing will stall before exceeding maximum
structural load of the aircraft.

Brian