Flarm in the US

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

On Aug 9, 9:43*am, Steve Freeman wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

powerflarm units for use in USA will be available later this year.
older flarm units are not for use in USA.

See: http://www.powerflarm.aero/

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:
Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 9, 7:56*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
* With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

Mike,
Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been
accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in
2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with
that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be
required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even
in regionals)?

As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent
years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a
nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been
prevented.....Just a thought!

Thanks - Renny

On Aug 9, 9:56*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
* With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

This is an area of fast changing technology. It is worth looking at
link provided by dave above to become more informed.
UH

On Aug 9, 7:12*am, Renny wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:56*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:



On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. *It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. *FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. *No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. *If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
* With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

Mike,
Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been
accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in
2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with
that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be
required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even
in regionals)?

As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent
years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a
nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been
prevented.....Just a thought!

Thanks - Renny

Mike and Renny,
a good discussion of the macro view of FLARM and ADS-B. Another view
is more personal, for example in my situation- I fly a lot of ridge
and mountain in a very narrow altitude band and a lot of clouds. There
is not a lot of power traffic in those conditions. I have a
transponder but I don't see the Transmit light going off very often
and I suspect I am not getting very many radar paints down in the
rocks and trees where I like to fly. My greatest risk is from the six
other gliders I share the area with, which do not have transponders
and will never get them at the current costs; in fairness my threat to
them is even higher as I am a low hour pilot. FLARM would go a long
way to reducing the risks and at a reasonable cost; PowerFlarm would
be my choice as it would also provide protection from ADS-B and
transponder equipped threats, but at twice the cost the installed base
in my situation would be very much reduced and I stand a better chance
of talking my potentially deadly friends into investing in FLARM. 2020
is not soon enough. It is not soon enough for the pilots killed on a
regular basis at contests, which we seem to simply accept as an
unavoidable risk.

With that in mind Mike's statement that FLARM isn't of use (for me)
would not be correct. In 2004 my club lost two gliders and a pilot in
a collision that would not have happens if they had had FLARM. How do
you calculate that cost?

Brian

On 8/9/2010 9:12 AM, Renny wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:56 am, Mike
wrote:
On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

Mike,
Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been
accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in
2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with
that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be
required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even
in regionals)?

As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent
years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a
nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been
prevented.....Just a thought!

Thanks - Renny

Why not require ADS-B units instead. Then you'd get the advantages of
FLARM, but you'd also see all of the transponder equipped GA aircraft
(assuming that there was a ground station in the area).

Now that Navworx is shipping their unit, this could happen tomorrow.
I'm sure that someone could talk Navworx into working with the major
glide computer manufacturers to provide the necessary interfaces if they
knew that this would be worth their while.

--
Mike Schumann

On 8/9/2010 11:23 AM, brianDG303 wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:12 am, wrote:
On Aug 9, 7:56 am, Mike
wrote:



On 8/9/2010 8:43 AM, Steve Freeman wrote:

Curious about the use of Flarm in the US. Was told by another pilot
that the frequency used by Flarm is not approved for that category of
use in the US. Is that true? If it is, do they make units that use a
US approved frequency?

There is virtually no FLARM in the US. It is unlikely to take off here,
as the biggest threats for mid-airs in the US are between powered
aircraft and gliders or other aircraft.

It's a chicken and egg situation. FLARM is only interesting if everyone
equips. No one is going to equip if they don't think that everyone else
will.

With ADS-B coming out, that is the way to go in the US. If you buy an
ADS-B transceiver, not only will you see other ADS-B equipped aircraft,
but, if you are within range of an ADS-B ground station, you will also
see all Mode C/S transponder equipped aircraft that are visible to ATC.
With 80-90% of GA aircraft in the US transponder equipped, this gives
an immediate benefit to anyone investing in ADS-B (assuming that they
have a ground station deployed in their area).

--
Mike Schumann

Mike,
Your points are all well taken. I realize that FLARM has never been
accepted in the US up to now, and we all know that ADS-B is coming in
2020 (although I thought there was a "glider" exemption), but with
that being said, would it make any sense for FLARM units to be
required for gliders competing in any of our nationals (or maybe even
in regionals)?

As you are aware, we've had several mid-airs between gliders in recent
years and perhaps if gliders had been equipped with FLARM units in a
nationals or in a regionals, some of these mid-airs might have been
prevented.....Just a thought!

Thanks - Renny

Mike and Renny,
a good discussion of the macro view of FLARM and ADS-B. Another view
is more personal, for example in my situation- I fly a lot of ridge
and mountain in a very narrow altitude band and a lot of clouds. There
is not a lot of power traffic in those conditions. I have a
transponder but I don't see the Transmit light going off very often
and I suspect I am not getting very many radar paints down in the
rocks and trees where I like to fly. My greatest risk is from the six
other gliders I share the area with, which do not have transponders
and will never get them at the current costs; in fairness my threat to
them is even higher as I am a low hour pilot. FLARM would go a long
way to reducing the risks and at a reasonable cost; PowerFlarm would
be my choice as it would also provide protection from ADS-B and
transponder equipped threats, but at twice the cost the installed base
in my situation would be very much reduced and I stand a better chance
of talking my potentially deadly friends into investing in FLARM. 2020
is not soon enough. It is not soon enough for the pilots killed on a
regular basis at contests, which we seem to simply accept as an
unavoidable risk.

With that in mind Mike's statement that FLARM isn't of use (for me)
would not be correct. In 2004 my club lost two gliders and a pilot in
a collision that would not have happens if they had had FLARM. How do
you calculate that cost?

Brian

Why not convince your fellow pilots to invest in the Navworx ADS-B
transceiver that is now shipping? FLARM in the US is a dead end. ADS-B
is the future. If you invest in a Navworx type of device, not only
would you see each other, but you will also see other ADS-B equipped GA
aircraft, and if you are flying within range of a ground station, ALL
transponder equipped aircraft.

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 9, 9:45*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:

Why not require ADS-B units instead. *Then you'd get the advantages of
FLARM, but you'd also see all of the transponder equipped GA aircraft
(assuming that there was a ground station in the area).

Perhaps because glider pilots would be overwhelmed by nuissance alerts
when contest flying? I have already experienced my PCAS becoming
close to useless as more gliders are fitted with transponders. I
don't need another system crying wolf all the time.

FLARM uses intelligent alerting based on glider flight
characteristics. It has been reported that the nuissance alerting
frequency low enough that it is still useful in high glider traffic
densities.


Andy

On 8/9/2010 11:57 AM, Andy wrote:
On Aug 9, 9:45 am, Mike
wrote:

Why not require ADS-B units instead. Then you'd get the advantages of
FLARM, but you'd also see all of the transponder equipped GA aircraft
(assuming that there was a ground station in the area).

Perhaps because glider pilots would be overwhelmed by nuissance alerts
when contest flying? I have already experienced my PCAS becoming
close to useless as more gliders are fitted with transponders. I
don't need another system crying wolf all the time.

FLARM uses intelligent alerting based on glider flight
characteristics. It has been reported that the nuissance alerting
frequency low enough that it is still useful in high glider traffic
densities.


Andy


There are two parts to FLARM; an ADS-B type position reporting
broadcast function, and a built in collision warning system.

ADS-B transceivers typically do not include any collision warning logic.
Instead they are more like modems. They transmit and receive position
data in addition to receiving weather info, etc. This information is
passed on to some form of graphics display device so that the locations
of other aircraft can be shown on a moving map display relative to your
own aircraft.

The display device, in addition to showing the location of other
aircraft, can also be programmed to provide collision warnings.
Obviously, the typical flight trajectories of gliders are different than
most power aircraft. I suspect that most glider specific moving map
vendors will try to match FLARM's logic to minimize false alarms if they
elect to provide a collision warning function in addition to just
displaying the relative locations of other aircraft.

ADS-B is obviously just in its infancy in the US vs FLARM's development
in Europe. The encouraging news is that the potential size of the US
ADS-B market is much larger than the potential FLARM market in Europe
(when you include the GA power market), so there will undoubtedly be
lots of innovation in the display devices that will provide the
collision warning function. In VFR environments, these devices will not
require FAA approvals, so I expect that technical advancements will be
very rapid, once low cost ADS-B transceivers become widely available.

--
Mike Schumann