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#1
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Spectra winching question
We (Greater Boston Soaring Club) had our first Spectra "glider flinging"
session today and were surprised that we saw no altitude improvement after switching from steel cable. The winds were not favorable and our heights may improve in time. .... But that's not the question. We have the option of launching from either asphalt or turf. From a Spectra wear point of view, which would be preferred? Tony V. LS6-b "6N" |
#2
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Spectra winching question
On Jun 19, 7:17*pm, Tony V wrote:
We (Greater Boston Soaring Club) had our first Spectra "glider flinging" session today and were surprised that we saw no altitude improvement after switching from steel cable. The winds were not favorable and our heights may improve in time. .... But that's not the question. We have the option of launching from either asphalt or turf. From a Spectra wear point of view, which would be preferred? Tony V. LS6-b "6N" Launching from turf will extend the rope's life but people launching from asphalt are also reporting good rope life. The rope tends to come off the ground far more quickly than steel cable so it suffers less abrasion regardless of the surface. FWIW, Spectra, (HMWPE) has 10 - 15 times the abrasion resistance of steel. The major advantage of turf over asphalt is temperature - black asphalt can get hot in the sun. However, Spectra's rated strength is valid to 150F (To advertize a strength value, the manufacturer has to set a maximum temperature - i.e. "Critical temperature".) Strength trends downward above that until it melts around 283F. It's not likely your asphalt will exceed 150F. There are two major failure modes (Other than winch damage.) one is "snagging" where individual fibers catch on sharp objects and get broken. This results in "fuzzing" which, counter-intuitively, actually protects the remaining fibers from further abrasion damage. The other is melting. Most rope damage is caused by poorly designed winches. Big crossed rollers collect rings of melted Spectra indicating the rope has been terminally damaged. If the rope is stiff and shiny, it's been melted by the winch. It should remain soft and pliable for it's whole life. It's worth investing in a Spectra-friendly fairlead for your winch. (e-mail me and I'll send you drawings and photos of one.) Whatever the ultimate failure mode, if you get 1500 launches or so, the extra per-launch cost of about $0.50 is trivial for most people. As to release height, the advantage of light ultra high strength synthetic rope depends on runway length. The longer rope you start with, the greater the relative benefit. Below 4000 feet or so, there isn't much height gain but at 10,000 feet it's really significant. But, even with short runways, you still get the safety and handling benefits which, in themselves, are worth it |
#3
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Spectra winching question
On Jun 19, 9:07*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jun 19, 7:17*pm, Tony V wrote: Whatever the ultimate failure mode, if you get 1500 launches or so, the extra per-launch cost of about $0.50 is trivial for most people. The cost difference of UHMWPE ropes over steel amortized over 1500 launches is about $1.05/launch if purchased in bulk. If you need to splice, that will be cheaper than splicing steel. You should do a lot less splicing that with steel. For 3/16" 12 strand, I recommend making a fid from a 10 1/2 knitting needle bonded with a 9/32" round brass tube. Field splices using a 12" 3x tuck splice in either direction are fine. Leave the proper splice for non-flying days. I would suggest actually amortizing your first run over 1000 launches until you get some experience with your actual results. That puts the cost differential nearer $1.58/launch. At that rate, you should be well on your way to funding replacement rope before you exhaust your current length. Costs are based on 5000ft bulk purchases at best available prices. Impact damage from loops striking parts of the winch causes breaks. Loops may result for both design and operational issues. Snagging objects on the ground can have similar results. I'm aware of a club that damaged $200 (~500ft) worth of Dyneema 75 that way recently. The more power your winch has, the more technically sophisticated your line feeds should be as the tendency to 'melt' the line increases with load. Your launches will be higher also but the real gains from the reduced weight of these ropes shows up when the run length approaches 5000ft. 5000ft of UHMWPE (3/16") is 50 lbs. The same length of steel is over 300 lbs. The winch should be at the fence. Your airport is only about 3100ft max. I don't think you'll see 100ft different in launch heights. If you can use a soft surface for retrieves, I'd recommend it. Runway verges work fine and keep the line clear of the hard surface so it may be used by other aircraft while the glider winch launch is staging. Up slack may pull some of the line onto the hard surface for a very short while, but it'll be in the air right away. Frank Whiteley |
#4
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Spectra winching question
On Jun 19, 8:17*pm, Tony V wrote:
We (Greater Boston Soaring Club) had our first Spectra "glider flinging" session today and were surprised that we saw no altitude improvement after switching from steel cable. The winds were not favorable and our heights may improve in time. .... But that's not the question. We have the option of launching from either asphalt or turf. From a Spectra wear point of view, which would be preferred? Tony V. LS6-b "6N" Besides anything else that has been said one core component and its effect on launch height that is almost always overlooked is the parachute. The drag a big, unwieldy parachute creates even when it is folded during the launch can have a much bigger effect than differences in cable weight etc. Just using a well designed parachute with a low profile when folded can easily get you a couple of hundered feet compared to some drag monster commandeered from some other unrelated application... Markus Graeber |
#5
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Spectra winching question
We have had excellent results from a mirage F1 drag chute.
Light, low drag when closed, very fast stable opening. Tough as one could hope for - we get ~2500 launches on rough stony earth before condition demands replacement. Unfortunately the surplus stock we obtained when the F1s were retired is now used up. Soon we will have to get a new chute. Much smaller solid canvas chutes have worse drag , shaking and opening on launch behaviour. Drag is influenced by shape and material/surface. On 2011/06/20 07:58 AM, Markus Graeber wrote: On Jun 19, 8:17 pm, Tony wrote: We (Greater Boston Soaring Club) had our first Spectra "glider flinging" session today and were surprised that we saw no altitude improvement after switching from steel cable. The winds were not favorable and our heights may improve in time. .... But that's not the question. We have the option of launching from either asphalt or turf. From a Spectra wear point of view, which would be preferred? Tony V. LS6-b "6N" Besides anything else that has been said one core component and its effect on launch height that is almost always overlooked is the parachute. The drag a big, unwieldy parachute creates even when it is folded during the launch can have a much bigger effect than differences in cable weight etc. Just using a well designed parachute with a low profile when folded can easily get you a couple of hundered feet compared to some drag monster commandeered from some other unrelated application... Markus Graeber -- Bruce Greeff T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57 |
#6
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Spectra winching question
On Jun 20, 6:55*am, BruceGreeff wrote:
We have had excellent results from a mirage F1 drag chute. Light, low drag when closed, very fast stable opening. Tough as one could hope for - we get ~2500 launches on rough stony earth before condition demands replacement. Unfortunately the surplus stock we obtained when the F1s were retired is now used up. Soon we will have to get a new chute. Much smaller solid canvas chutes have worse drag , shaking and opening on launch behaviour. Drag is influenced by shape and material/surface. On 2011/06/20 07:58 AM, Markus Graeber wrote: On Jun 19, 8:17 pm, Tony *wrote: We (Greater Boston Soaring Club) had our first Spectra "glider flinging" session today and were surprised that we saw no altitude improvement after switching from steel cable. The winds were not favorable and our heights may improve in time. .... But that's not the question. We have the option of launching from either asphalt or turf. From a Spectra wear point of view, which would be preferred? Tony V. LS6-b "6N" Besides anything else that has been said one core component and its effect on launch height that is almost always overlooked is the parachute. The drag a big, unwieldy parachute creates even when it is folded during the launch can have a much bigger effect than differences in cable weight etc. Just using a well designed parachute with a low profile when folded can easily get you a couple of hundered feet compared to some drag monster commandeered from some other unrelated application... Markus Graeber -- Bruce Greeff T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57 It's certainly true parachutes can hurt the height achieved. Fortunately, there are alternatives. Traditionally, parachutes were there to prevent steel cable from kinking and tangling - Spectra/Dyneema rarely does either. Some clubs have eliminated the parachute and just let the soft rope fall. Others have used ~20" diameter plastic drag disks cut from the bottoms of plastic barrels which are far cheaper and tend to protect the weak link hardware. The drag disk can also eliminate the need to remove and fold up an expensive parachute for the rope retrieve - just let the disk drag behind the retrieve car. Spectra/Dyneema rope forces a lot of changes in winches and operational procedures. Bill D Spectra/Dyneema requires far less drag in the system than steel. |
#7
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Spectra winching question
Europeans have tens of thousands of winch launches of experience with
Spectra/Dyneema rope on us and as far as I hear they don't see real advantages (meaning they are switching back to steel). Neither in life expectancy nor in launch height or ease of splicing are there significant reasons to abandon steel. In fact, the winch guillotine has to be modified to cut Spectra, much more difficult than severing a steel cable. Unless you are winching from a really nasty surface I'd say that the steel cable is still overall the best material to go with. |
#8
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Spectra winching question
Spectra/Plasma/Dyneema doesn't store energy the way steel cable does.
When cable breaks under tension, you get a huge tangle that has to be dealt with. Hands, cable, winch, all get damaged. With the Dyneema, the rope just falls with little or no tangling. That alone is worth the cost to me. |
#9
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Spectra winching question
On Jun 20, 10:02*am, Herbert kilian wrote:
Europeans have tens of thousands of winch launches of experience with Spectra/Dyneema rope on us and as far as I hear they don't see real advantages (meaning they are switching back to steel). *Neither in life expectancy nor in launch height or ease of splicing are there significant reasons to abandon steel. *In fact, the winch guillotine has to be modified to cut Spectra, much more difficult than severing a steel cable. Unless you are winching from a really nasty surface I'd say that the steel cable is still overall the best material to go with. Citations? The only people I know of who switched back were the ones who refused to make the necessary changes to their winches and operational procedures. And, perhaps, those with really short runways where there is little gain in height. If you want to see a really big difference in height, roll out 3000 meters of steel cable on one drum and the same amount of Spectra on the other and see which one gets a glider higher. The aerobatic guys in Germany got a ASK-21 to 1700 meters (5577') AGL - try THAT with steel. They are most certainly not going back to steel. However, for many, it there's no choice since insurance companies are very aware that industries who previously used steel cable (wire rope) have switched to Spectra for worker safety reasons saving the lives of hundreds of workers a year. Wire rope is really nasty stuff. OTOH, Spectra is really sweet to work with. It's easy to see the day when wire rope is made illegal for any application where people are exposed to it. Yes, Spectra is much more difficult to cut with a guillotine which is a testament to it's toughness - and to steel's weakness. However, simple changes to guillotines allow them to cut Spectra. Specifically, guillotines with a "shearing" action just won't work. The tough Spectra pushes the blades apart and jams the works. The only design proven to work reliably is a "chopping" guillotine where a sharp blade cuts the rope against a brass block. This is just one of the changes needed for Spectra. |
#10
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Spectra winching question
On 6/20/2011 12:02 PM, Herbert kilian wrote:
Unless you are winching from a really nasty surface I'd say that the steel cable is still overall the best material to go with. In our case, our insurer (Costello) said it's going to be synthetic rope or nothing. Thanks for all the replies. Every one has been quite helpful!! Tony |
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