Learning to fly

Dan G wrote:
On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter wrote:
Rob McDonald wrote

My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when you
are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the experience,
and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.
The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK if you want that,
not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that this is the
choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one would spend the
whole weekend hanging around.

I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand that in the US
you can book lessons with instructors and turn up a set time, fly, and
go home again.

In the UK you get instruction for free but have to spend the whole day
on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of flying. In theory
you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs e.g. helping
launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if you do that people
will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll rapidly find
yourself part of a small group which does all the work while everyone
else shirks.

And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster than the
icecaps...

A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and introduced
booking systems and are indeed reaping the results (more members
flying than they know what to do with), but those clubs are very much
in the minority (introducing something new implies the old system was
inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit that they were
inadequate).


Dan

Actually not a bad system for learning. Naturally it all depends on your
available time and the level of your incentive, but I'm one instructor
who believes strongly in the concept of "hanging around the field" as
one of the strongest learning tools in aviation.
Doing this, you soon pick up on how things are done and why. You also
see first hand the result of things tried, done, and not done. You learn
fairly fast just who knows what they are doign and who doesn't.
All in all, hanging around the field can pay off in HUGE unpaid for
dividends for those with the time to do it.
Dudley Henriques

Not many clubs in the US do booking, but the commercial
operators do so.

I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
and leaving. People sail and fly gliders (in part)
so they can talk about it. And no one but other glider
pilots understand; explaining it to non-flyers gets
to be tedious and boring.

Just two kinds of pilots talk about their flights with
others; they are glider pilots and fighter pilots.
Have you ever heard engine-driven airplane pilots
talking to each other about the details of their flights?
Doesn't happen -- it is just a tool.

Hanging out and talking is a great part of the fun;
it is a life-style and should not be confused with
just picking up ratings or badges.

But maybe some people just like to pick up another
experience for two years, drop it and move on to something
else. It comes down to deep interest or shallow diversion.
I've been at it since 1954 and haven't had enough;
I would not have had the wonderful experiences had
I just booked, flew, and left without hanging out and
developing deep friendships.

At 23:54 08 July 2007, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Dan G wrote:
On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter wrote:
Rob McDonald wrote

My experience with soaring is that you are always
doing something when you
are not flying. Socializing with club members is part
of the experience,
and much more common in my experience than in power-plane
flying clubs.
The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK
if you want that,
not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that
this is the
choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one
would spend the
whole weekend hanging around.

I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand
that in the US
you can book lessons with instructors and turn up
a set time, fly, and
go home again.

In the UK you get instruction for free but have to
spend the whole day
on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of
flying. In theory
you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs
e.g. helping
launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if
you do that people
will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll
rapidly find
yourself part of a small group which does all the
work while everyone
else shirks.

And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster
than the
icecaps...

A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and
introduced
booking systems and are indeed reaping the results
(more members
flying than they know what to do with), but those
clubs are very much
in the minority (introducing something new implies
the old system was
inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit
that they were
inadequate).


Dan

Actually not a bad system for learning. Naturally it
all depends on your
available time and the level of your incentive, but
I'm one instructor
who believes strongly in the concept of 'hanging around
the field' as
one of the strongest learning tools in aviation.
Doing this, you soon pick up on how things are done
and why. You also
see first hand the result of things tried, done, and
not done. You learn
fairly fast just who knows what they are doign and
who doesn't.
All in all, hanging around the field can pay off in
HUGE unpaid for
dividends for those with the time to do it.
Dudley Henriques

On Jul 9, 5:29 am, Nyal Williams
wrote:
I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
and leaving.

That is because you lack _empathy_, the ability to realise and
understand viewpoints different to your own. Personally I wouldn't
shout about it.


Dan

That is my personal view point and every one has his
own. If yours is different you are welcome to it and
I don't object; I won't argue about it, but I don't
mind anyone's knowing my particular prejudice about
this matter and I don't hide behind some willy-nilly
empathic stance that refuses to allow an opinion.

I wish anyone well who has a different view; is that
enough empathy?

At 14:24 09 July 2007, Dan G wrote:
On Jul 9, 5:29 am, Nyal Williams
wrote:
I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
and leaving.

That is because you lack _empathy_, the ability to
realise and
understand viewpoints different to your own. Personally
I wouldn't
shout about it.


Dan

Nyal Williams wrote:
Not many clubs in the US do booking, but the commercial
operators do so.

I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
and leaving. People sail and fly gliders (in part)
so they can talk about it. And no one but other glider
pilots understand; explaining it to non-flyers gets
to be tedious and boring.

Just two kinds of pilots talk about their flights with
others; they are glider pilots and fighter pilots.
Have you ever heard engine-driven airplane pilots
talking to each other about the details of their flights?
Doesn't happen -- it is just a tool.

Hanging out and talking is a great part of the fun;
it is a life-style and should not be confused with
just picking up ratings or badges.

I'd thoroughly agree.

I fly with the Cambridge (UK) club, but I'm just back from a weekend in
the Scottish borders. I went up for an long-time model flying friend's
50th birthday on Saturday night. A lot of model flying friends were
there to, so it was a good party. I stayed at the Borders Gliding Club
for the weekend and flew Saturday and Sunday.

I'd never been to that club before and didn't know anybody, but the
instant camaraderie of glider pilots made for a great weekend.
Cambridgeshire is flat and only offers thermal soaring while the Borders
has ridge and wave lift as well as thermals, though only the ridge and
thermals were working. I flew both days, renewed my acquaintance with a
Grob Acro III and added a club Astir to my type list, learnt a lot about
aero towing in the turbulence around hills and had a good time joining
in the general airfield activity and socializing.

In short, the gliding parts of the weekend were at least as good as the
party.

To the OP:
- its true that sites like Cambridge are a lot less active once the
thermals stop for winter, but we still operate on a reduced scale
for training, proficiency flying and, after Christmas there's the
surge of activity as everybody does their annual flying checks in
preparation for the next season and/or helps in the workshop as we
put gliders through their C of A inspections. We also mount
expeditions to hill sites in Yorkshire or Scotland.

- Clubs with hill sites (Sutton Bank, Borders, Portmoak, Nympsfield
and, of course the London Gliding Club) can run a pretty full program
all year round.

- Gliding is inherently social because it needs a minimum of three
people to get a glider airborne (pilot, tuggie/winch driver, launch
marshal/wing runner) and it just gets better as the numbers increase.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Ouch...a bit harsh

Scott


Dan G wrote:
On Jul 9, 5:29 am, Nyal Williams
wrote:

I can't see the point in booking, appearing, flying,
and leaving.


That is because you lack _empathy_, the ability to realise and
understand viewpoints different to your own. Personally I wouldn't
shout about it.


Dan


--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

Dan G wrote:

That is because you lack _empathy_, the ability to realise and
understand viewpoints different to your own. Personally I wouldn't
shout about it.


DanG,

You may be just the person to finally explain how one diverges toward
something. I've always wondered. Perhaps by converging away from it?


Jack

A lot more hanging about waiting to get a launch as well. I have never
really "got" gliding, being a die'd in the wool power chap. Too much down
time for me.

I'd recommend the NPPL M

David

Hmm. Sunday, I went to the glider field (H07 in IL) around 10 am,
preflighted my glider, got in line for a tow, and 15 minutes later
released at 1500' agl after about 2 minutes on tow, then flew a 200
mile XC in about 5 hours, exploring the south Illinois countryside
under beautiful Cumulus clouds while practicing for a glider race next
week. Ended up landing at a nice airport (KGRE) 12 miles away from
where I took off (day died a bit early and I pushed a little too
hard), called my friends, and they drove my trailer over so I could
derig my glider and get back to the clubhouse for adult beverages and
postflight BS session.

Great way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

If you want to travel, do it in a stinkpot - sorry, airplane. If you
want to fly, do it in a glider!

By the way, if you are in Michigan next week, stop by the Ionia
airport and check out the glider races.

Kirk
(lots of hours in both)

On Jul 10, 12:32 am, Scott wrote:
Ouch...a bit harsh

Yes, it was! However it was this part:

On Jul 9, 5:29 am, Nyal Williams
wrote:
snip
But maybe some people just like to pick up another
experience for two years, drop it and move on to something
else. It comes down to deep interest or shallow diversion.

That riled me somewhat. My interest in gliding is something that I
don't care to explain to people because they'd think I was a spaced-
out hippie and, by and large, I'm not. So I felt slightly insulted by
the suggestion that those who cannot invest all their daylight hours
on a weekend cannot have a "deep interest" in gliding, but are in fact
"shallow". Yup, some people do indeed leave after two years - in total
frustration at the lack of support given to them while they struggle
to progress.

I have known at least a dozen people come and go from gliding over the
last two years at our club because eight hours in winter for twenty
minutes flying (and sometimes none) is not an acceptable balance for
them. Yes those days are quickly forgotten once you're a summer aero-
tow taker who never comes in winter and never helps out (a good half,
being conservative, of our club membership would fit that
description). (We're a flat-land thermal-only site.) Personally I turn
up about once a fortnight in winter *purely* to winch drive, retrieve
drive, and generally help out. I do that because I want to help people
are entering our sport, and am acutely aware of crappy it can be for
them when they were sold tales of summer soaring and are faced with
the grim reality of a wet and muddy field. I might take a launch, but
only when I really need to do it to keep current.

A lot of people seem to regard the cold days for little flying thing
as a rite-of-passage; perhaps an "intiation test". Others seem to
think that because they had to do it, so should everyone else. With
gliding contracting at an alarming rate, I don't think the sport can
survive those points of view in the long term.


Dan

By spending a significant amount of time at the field, one sees many good
and bad takeoffs and landings. It's possible to learn a great deal just by
observing and discussing with your clubmates.

By pitching in to help rig and derig gliders - the club's and the other
private pilots who keep their ships at the field - one can learn how they
differ and what one might want to eventually buy.

Yes, I've had those days where I only flew for 20 minutes... or not at all.
With an hour drive both ways, I was into it about for 2 years before my
day's soaring time exceeded my drive time!

In my experience, those that expect to show up, fly, and go home do not get
deeply into the sport because they don't learn enough to make the commitment
to truly learn to soar. I decided from the beginning that if I was going to
be a pilot I'd better give it my all in order to be safe and proficient.

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Dan G wrote:
On Jul 8, 6:23 pm, Peter wrote:
Rob McDonald wrote

My experience with soaring is that you are always doing something when
you
are not flying. Socializing with club members is part of the
experience,
and much more common in my experience than in power-plane flying clubs.
The social scene seems to be a way of life. It's OK if you want that,
not OK if you don't. But one needs to be clear that this is the
choice. I looked into gliding and it was obvious one would spend the
whole weekend hanging around.

I think it depends on where you're flying. I understand that in the US
you can book lessons with instructors and turn up a set time, fly, and
go home again.

In the UK you get instruction for free but have to spend the whole day
on a cold field being bored for twenty minutes of flying. In theory
you can entertain yourself by doing some other jobs e.g. helping
launch gliders, driving winch retrieve etc. but if you do that people
will quickly come to expect it of you, and you'll rapidly find
yourself part of a small group which does all the work while everyone
else shirks.

And people wonder why UK gliding is shrinking faster than the
icecaps...

A couple of clubs have got their arses into gear and introduced
booking systems and are indeed reaping the results (more members
flying than they know what to do with), but those clubs are very much
in the minority (introducing something new implies the old system was
inadequate, and it's very hard for people to admit that they were
inadequate).


Dan

Actually not a bad system for learning. Naturally it all depends on your
available time and the level of your incentive, but I'm one instructor who
believes strongly in the concept of "hanging around the field" as one of
the strongest learning tools in aviation.
Doing this, you soon pick up on how things are done and why. You also see
first hand the result of things tried, done, and not done. You learn
fairly fast just who knows what they are doign and who doesn't.
All in all, hanging around the field can pay off in HUGE unpaid for
dividends for those with the time to do it.
Dudley Henriques