Commercial 250nm VFR flight - all 3 landings on the same day?

The long flight does NOT have to be on the same day, it is
acceptable to have a stop, but it must be as it says below
[regulation] landings at three places, with one a straight
line of 250 NM. I would log the flight as stages, with the
citation of 61.129 in the remarks, with notes that it was a
continuous trip, with stops at three airports. This may
have already been meet with you previous experience. I
would endorse you on the trips you listed, but the issue is
what the designated examiner wants. Ask your CFI who he
would send you to for the test and then both of you should
speak to the eaxminer. But nowhere in the regulation does
it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight
line from the departure, you should be OK.
Be sure the flights are SOLO, no passengers allowed, no dual
allowed.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...4/14tab_02.tpl
§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided
in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
includes at least-

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
hours must be in a single-engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a
retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch
propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of
a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting
of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for
the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the
date of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on
the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part,
which includes at least-

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
landings (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
tower.

"Peter" wrote in message
...
|I cannot find an answer on the FAA Q&A site (the one with
the personal
| login, but which in fact appears to be rather bare), so I
wrote to
| them. However they often don't reply with anything
meaningful, so I
| would appreciate any references anybody here can dig out.
|
| I am doing the CPL in the UK and the CFI says that it all
needs to be
| done on the same day. The winter weather here is dreadful
and doing a
| ~ 600nm trip (there and back) under VFR is quite
difficult, unless I
| skirt around the coastline at low level, on autopilot, all
the way to
| Scotland. I have the IR also but can't really do it that
way It's
| also a waste of a lot of fuel for what might be a
pointless logbook
| entry.
|
| This is what I wrote to them:
|
| **************
|
| I am doing the FAA commercial certificate, and need
guidance on the
| 250/300nm VFR solo flight with three landings.
|
| I have about 700 hours and have flown all over Europe, and
have lots
| of flights in my logbook which are along the lines of
|
| 500nm
| 500nm
| 2 days' stop
| 500nm
| 500nm
|
| Some get closer to a 1-night stop:
|
| 25/8/03 EGBW LFBT 544NM
| 26/8/03 LFBT EGBW
| 26/8/03 EGBW EGKB
|
| or are much longer than 300nm GC distance:
|
| 31/8/03 EGKA LFBZ 444NM
| 31/8/03 LFBZ LEAX 417NM
| 3/9/03 LEAX LFBZ
| 3/9/03 LFBZ EGKA
|
| and some have a number of landings but never 3 on the same
day:
|
| 12/9/04 EGKA LSZG 374NM
| 12/9/04 LSZG LSPV 59NM
| 16/9/04 LSPV LSGS
| 16/9/04 LSGS LSPV
| 17/9/04 LSPV LGKR 690NM
| 18/9/04 LGKR LGST
| 23/9/04 LGST LGKR
| 24/9/04 LGKR LFKB
| 25/9/04 LFKB EGKA
|
| etc
|
| I cannot find a flight which has all 3 landings on the
*same* day.
|
| Also, is it necessary for all 3 landings to be at
different airports?
|
| **************
|
| Recently, somebody sent me this, purporting to come from
John Lynch
| himself, but I cannot find an online reference to it. I
have tried
| googling on various verbatim phrases from it but nothing
turns up.
|
|
| Quote:
| QUESTION: A question has come up regarding §
61.129(a)(4)(i) from an
| examiner in our district.
|
| A private pilot conducted a cross-country flight from
Pompano, Fl to
| Virginia making ONE stop in South Carolina. He stayed
overnight visiting friends
| and the next day he returned to Florida using the
reverse route. He now wants
| to apply this cross-country flight to meet the
requirement for §
| 61.129(a)(4)(i).
|
| The questions a 1) If this is one flight, how many
days can elapse and
| still be counted as one flight? i.e. one night, three
nights, 2 weeks, 1
| month, etc?
|
| ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129(a)(4)(i) and § 61.1(b)(3)(ii);
Yes, it is a good
| cross-country. This cross-country can be counted for §
61.129(a)(4)(i) purposes
| and also for § 61.65(d)(1) purposes.
|
| If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from
Pompano, Florida to
| Virginia and return is a ". . . cross-country flight of
not less than 300
| nautical miles total distance." And the first stop in
South Carolina is ". . .
| at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250
nautical miles from the
| original departure point" (i.e., Pompano, Florida). And
the cross-country
| flight involved ". . . landings at a minimum of three
points . . ." (i.e.,
| airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano,
Florida). Yes, the landing on
| the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one
of the 3 landings.
| {Q&A-433}
|
| Peter.
| --
| Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
| E-mail replies to but remove
the A and the B.
| Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT
necessary.

Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on
the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is
not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
to the original starting point, .



On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 07:40:52 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
wrote:

The long flight does NOT have to be on the same day, it is
acceptable to have a stop, but it must be as it says below
[regulation] landings at three places, with one a straight
line of 250 NM. I would log the flight as stages, with the
citation of 61.129 in the remarks, with notes that it was a
continuous trip, with stops at three airports. This may
have already been meet with you previous experience. I
would endorse you on the trips you listed, but the issue is
what the designated examiner wants. Ask your CFI who he
would send you to for the test and then both of you should
speak to the eaxminer. But nowhere in the regulation does
it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight
line from the departure, you should be OK.
Be sure the flights are SOLO, no passengers allowed, no dual
allowed.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text...4/14tab_02.tpl
§ 61.129 Aeronautical experience.
(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided
in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a
commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and
single-engine class rating must log at least 250 hours of
flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:

(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be
in airplanes.

(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which
includes at least-

(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and

(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10
hours must be in airplanes.

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in
§61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least-

(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5
hours must be in a single-engine airplane;

(ii) 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a
retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch
propeller, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant
seeking a single-engine seaplane rating, 10 hours of
training in a seaplane that has flaps and a controllable
pitch propeller;

(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of
a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure;

(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a
single-engine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting
of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical
miles from the original point of departure; and

(v) 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for
the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the
date of the test.

(4) 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane on
the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(1) of this part,
which includes at least-

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical
miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three
points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least
250 nautical miles from the original departure point.
However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the
longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of
at least 150 nautical miles; and

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10
landings (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control
tower.

"Peter" wrote in message
.. .
|I cannot find an answer on the FAA Q&A site (the one with
the personal
| login, but which in fact appears to be rather bare), so I
wrote to
| them. However they often don't reply with anything
meaningful, so I
| would appreciate any references anybody here can dig out.
|
| I am doing the CPL in the UK and the CFI says that it all
needs to be
| done on the same day. The winter weather here is dreadful
and doing a
| ~ 600nm trip (there and back) under VFR is quite
difficult, unless I
| skirt around the coastline at low level, on autopilot, all
the way to
| Scotland. I have the IR also but can't really do it that
way It's
| also a waste of a lot of fuel for what might be a
pointless logbook
| entry.
|
| This is what I wrote to them:
|
| **************
|
| I am doing the FAA commercial certificate, and need
guidance on the
| 250/300nm VFR solo flight with three landings.
|
| I have about 700 hours and have flown all over Europe, and
have lots
| of flights in my logbook which are along the lines of
|
| 500nm
| 500nm
| 2 days' stop
| 500nm
| 500nm
|
| Some get closer to a 1-night stop:
|
| 25/8/03 EGBW LFBT 544NM
| 26/8/03 LFBT EGBW
| 26/8/03 EGBW EGKB
|
| or are much longer than 300nm GC distance:
|
| 31/8/03 EGKA LFBZ 444NM
| 31/8/03 LFBZ LEAX 417NM
| 3/9/03 LEAX LFBZ
| 3/9/03 LFBZ EGKA
|
| and some have a number of landings but never 3 on the same
day:
|
| 12/9/04 EGKA LSZG 374NM
| 12/9/04 LSZG LSPV 59NM
| 16/9/04 LSPV LSGS
| 16/9/04 LSGS LSPV
| 17/9/04 LSPV LGKR 690NM
| 18/9/04 LGKR LGST
| 23/9/04 LGST LGKR
| 24/9/04 LGKR LFKB
| 25/9/04 LFKB EGKA
|
| etc
|
| I cannot find a flight which has all 3 landings on the
*same* day.
|
| Also, is it necessary for all 3 landings to be at
different airports?
|
| **************
|
| Recently, somebody sent me this, purporting to come from
John Lynch
| himself, but I cannot find an online reference to it. I
have tried
| googling on various verbatim phrases from it but nothing
turns up.
|
|
| Quote:
| QUESTION: A question has come up regarding §
61.129(a)(4)(i) from an
| examiner in our district.
|
| A private pilot conducted a cross-country flight from
Pompano, Fl to
| Virginia making ONE stop in South Carolina. He stayed
overnight visiting friends
| and the next day he returned to Florida using the
reverse route. He now wants
| to apply this cross-country flight to meet the
requirement for §
| 61.129(a)(4)(i).
|
| The questions a 1) If this is one flight, how many
days can elapse and
| still be counted as one flight? i.e. one night, three
nights, 2 weeks, 1
| month, etc?
|
| ANSWER: Ref. § 61.129(a)(4)(i) and § 61.1(b)(3)(ii);
Yes, it is a good
| cross-country. This cross-country can be counted for §
61.129(a)(4)(i) purposes
| and also for § 61.65(d)(1) purposes.
|
| If my geography is correct, a cross-country flight from
Pompano, Florida to
| Virginia and return is a ". . . cross-country flight of
not less than 300
| nautical miles total distance." And the first stop in
South Carolina is ". . .
| at least is a straight-line distance of at least 250
nautical miles from the
| original departure point" (i.e., Pompano, Florida). And
the cross-country
| flight involved ". . . landings at a minimum of three
points . . ." (i.e.,
| airport at South Carolina, Virginia, and Pompano,
Florida). Yes, the landing on
| the return trip back to Pompano, Florida counts as one
of the 3 landings.
| {Q&A-433}
|
| Peter.
| --
| Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
| E-mail replies to but remove
the A and the B.
| Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT
necessary.

The flights do not have to be on
the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is
not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
to the original starting point, .

The flight is not over until you say it's over. There is no definition
of "flight", and therefore you can declare a single "flight" to be
whatever combination of legs you want it to be. This is supported by
the FAA FAQ.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
...
Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on
the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is
not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
to the original starting point, .

where does it say you have to return to the original starting point? For
example taking a plane from Niagara Falls to Providence Rhode Island with
stops at Rochester Pittsfield and Barnes should do the trick.

You are correct. There is no requirement to return to the original
starting point. The FAQ's did state though, that when/if you do return
to the original point of departure, the flight is considered
completed.

I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone
wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any more. Pretty
stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability.


On Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:13:07 -0000, "Chris"
wrote:


"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
.. .
Jim is certainly correct on this. The flights do not have to be on
the same day, consecutive days, or consecutive weeks. The flight is
not over, really, for cross country logging purposes, until you return
to the original starting point, .

where does it say you have to return to the original starting point? For
example taking a plane from Niagara Falls to Providence Rhode Island with
stops at Rochester Pittsfield and Barnes should do the trick.

Do you have a URL to this FAQ? That's what I need.

The faq is difficult to find, and may not even be up any more. It seems
the FAA can make up its own rules as it goes along.

I have a copy of the FAQ for part 61, REVISION #17, DATE: AUGUST 22,
2002 INCORPORATING Q&A #s: 471-522 WITH ALL PREVIOUS Q&As 1 - 470

MAINTAINED BY ALLAN PINKSTON
PILOT EXAMINER STANDARDIZATION TEAM, AFS-640
Contact: Allan Pinkston phone: (405) 954 - 6472
E-Mail:

I can send it to you if you like.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

I have the last complete FAQ, before the FAA took it down, if anyone
wants it. The FAA says that it is not any good any more. Pretty
stupid to call it policy, then remove it from availability.

Where did they say it's "no good anymore"?

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In the US,

Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm

Distance and landings: 61.129(a)(4)(i), "SOLO" One "flight" or Trip, of at
least 300nm with landings at a minimum of three points, at least one landing
250nm straight line from the original departure point

To meet this requirement I flew from Lea Vegas NV, to Mesquite (NE of Las
Vegas) to "stage the aircraft" and there declared the beginning of my trip.
I flew from Mesquite to Leverne-Brackett CA (my first landing) and had a
late breakfast with friends at the airport. From there to Gillespie Field in
SanDiego CA to meet another friend. Gillespie is more than 250nm straight
line from Mesquite and my second landing. I then refueled and returned to
Las Vegas (VGT) NV, more than enough distance for my 300nm total required
and my 3rd landing. At that point I declared my "trip" complete for the
requirement of 61.129(a)(4)(i)

BT

"Peter" wrote in message
...

"Jim Macklin" wrote

But nowhere in the regulation does
it say "one day" so as long as the flights are all legs
longer than 50 miles and the longest is 250 miles straight
line from the departure, you should be OK.

Thank you Jim - but where is the requirement for all legs to be over
50nm?

When I did the IFR x/c for the IR, we did the flight with an initial
250nm leg and then flew to a nearby airport to achieve the three
different IAPs.

In fact I can't see why the three landings cannot all be done at the
same airport, say 300nm+ away from the point of departure.

Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm
Yes, the first leg has to be 250nm but I can't see a requirement for
the subsequent legs to be 50nm.

I know a x/c flight is anything over 50nm with the departure and
destination being different places, but I don't see how this applies
to this flight.

It is not the first leg that has to be 250nm. At least one landing has
to be more than 250 nm from the original point of departure. The other
legs, it appears, can be any length.

I know a x/c flight is anything over 50nm with the departure and
destination being different places,

No, for this purpose x/c means the departure and destination have to be
more than 50 nm apart. You can't just fly 50nm and land right next
door, and call it a x/c for purposes of meeting commercial requirements.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

the first leg does not have to be 250nm for 61.129, but only one landing of
at least 3 different points at least that distance from the original
starting point

In the original post, you asked where the Cross country distance definition
was, it is 50nm and is in 61.1, this is primarily geared to those that may
only make lots of 30nm trips from "home" and want to count the x-c time
towards a rating.

you can log anything you want as x-c, but to count it toward a rating, it
needs to be at least 50nm

I did not say that each leg had to be 50nm, if you wanted, you could land 16
times, every 25miles as long as you finally got 250nm from where you declare
the start point and then head back.

I should have added to the original question, it does not have to be in one
day, if the weather shuts you down, or your visiting friends for the night
you can continue on the next day or 3 days later.

Just as long as you are SOLO.

BT

"Peter" wrote in message
news

"BT" wrote

Cross Country definition for a rating requirement 61.1(b)(3)D(ii)(B),50nm

Yes, the first leg has to be 250nm but I can't see a requirement for
the subsequent legs to be 50nm.

I know a x/c flight is anything over 50nm with the departure and
destination being different places, but I don't see how this applies
to this flight.

It certainly isn't standard practice even in the USA, where I did my
IR.