The ethanol scam

AES wrote:

As a reality-based rather than faith-based individual myself, I'm
genuinely delighted to have you post this, Jay. Agrees exactly with
what I hear from scientific colleagues. But just who are the villains
here?

* Farm-subsidy-addicted Midwest voters?

* The politicians they elect?

* Big corporate firms like ADM, who'll gladly accept (and defend)
similar subsidies, even while knowing full well that they're
absolutely undeserved, and while spouting free market rhetoric in
all directions?

* The politicians they bribe?

* The Bush/Cheney administration, with its near-endless record of
suppressing scientific reality in any and every area where they
find the facts inconvenient?

* The voters who elected them?

Lots of villains around -- not all of them politicians

Yes to all including Bush/Cheney but not for the reason you list. I only
blame them for not shouting from the roof tops how stupid the corn for fuel
plan is.

"Jay Honeck" wrote:


But it must be done, or our country is being led down the primrose
path to perdition. The fact remains that converting corn into
ethanol, for the purpose of fueling automobiles, is simply absurd.

Oh, man, have you pushed my hot button!

If you were looking for one example that sums up practically everything
that's wrong with U. S. politics and government, you couldn't find a better
one than corn-ohol subsidies.

Most Americans are getting ROBBED by this scam, while a few big farmers and
Ag Corp's are getting rich.

Not only are we getting our money stolen directly by the gov't giveaways, but
the diversion of corn to etanol and land to corn production has driven up the
price of other crops, especially livestock feeds. This is producing snowball
effects in all sorts of commodity pricing. Have you checked the current cost
of a gallon of milk vs. a couple of years ago?

This country has serious energy problems, but we're not electing leadership
with the gumption to do anything real about solving them. Write your
congress people and *demand* an end to corn ethanol subsidies. They won't do
anything unless we push them.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote:

politicians

Yes to all including Bush/Cheney but not for the reason you list. I only
blame them for not shouting from the roof tops how stupid the corn for fuel
plan is.


Why should they?

If I were an oil man, I'd *love* the corn ethanol scam for two reasons: it
will never provide a viable supplement to the nation's energy suppy, and it
may end up giving the whole biofuel idea a bad name.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

In article ,
AES wrote:

In article . com,
Jay Honeck wrote:

"There is thus a net energy loss of about 54,000 Btu for every gallon
(18.9 MJ for every kilogram) of EtOH produced. Unlike the old joke
about the tailor who claims he loses money on every suit, but stays in
business by 'making up for it in quantity', there is no deception
here. It's a losing proposition."

You can read the whole article he
http://www.energyadvocate.com/etohscam.htm

Write your Congress Critters. The politicians are leading us down
this path for purely political purposes, and it's up to us to stop it.
--
Jay Honeck

As a reality-based rather than faith-based individual myself, I'm
genuinely delighted to have you post this, Jay. Agrees exactly with
what I hear from scientific colleagues. But just who are the villains
here?

* Farm-subsidy-addicted Midwest voters?

* The politicians they elect?

* Big corporate firms like ADM, who'll gladly accept (and defend)
similar subsidies, even while knowing full well that they're
absolutely undeserved, and while spouting free market rhetoric in
all directions?

* The politicians they bribe?

* The Bush/Cheney administration, with its near-endless record of
suppressing scientific reality in any and every area where they
find the facts inconvenient?

* The voters who elected them?

Lots of villains around -- not all of them politicians

I am sure that all of the above should be on the list of "usual
suspects" -- but -- you forgot the environmentalist crowd, who, for
years have sought ways to cripple our economy and way of life. The old
leftists, who lost their cause when communism went TU, found a ready
home in the environmental movement. Much of the "climate change"
"science" is hokum and poorly-devised models, resulting in
Garbage-garbage out.

Never fear Dan,
We actually reduced our corn acres this year in favor of vegetable contracts
(green beans, sweet corn, peas) but it is a result of the high corn prices.
For the first time in a long time the vegetable processors were forced to
raise their prices to compete for acres that would be planted to corn. So
it made the vegetable contracts profitable... so far... the biggest problem
now is the increased input costs as a result of the corn/ethanol deal....
Fertilizer prices are up across the board 30% since December and that's IF
you can find it. We have 4 local suppliers and each of them run out of
product at least weekly. Some of this is due to foreign demand, but a lot
of it is due to the fact that corn requires more fertilizer than soybeans or
wheat, both of which have had acreage reductions this year.

The biggest fat cats are the large independently owned Ag organizations that
own farm land and actually farm it (so they can produce their own corn),
sell fertilizer ( so they can buy at wholesale prices to use on the corn
that they grow), and own an ethanol plant that is still currently building
or expanding an ethanol plant (still receiving govt subsidies), located on a
rail line (cheap freight in and out and non dependent upon local corn
supply/demand).

Jim

"Dan Luke" wrote in message
...

"Jay Honeck" wrote:


But it must be done, or our country is being led down the primrose
path to perdition. The fact remains that converting corn into
ethanol, for the purpose of fueling automobiles, is simply absurd.

Oh, man, have you pushed my hot button!

If you were looking for one example that sums up practically everything
that's wrong with U. S. politics and government, you couldn't find a
better
one than corn-ohol subsidies.

Most Americans are getting ROBBED by this scam, while a few big farmers
and
Ag Corp's are getting rich.

Not only are we getting our money stolen directly by the gov't giveaways,
but
the diversion of corn to etanol and land to corn production has driven up
the
price of other crops, especially livestock feeds. This is producing
snowball
effects in all sorts of commodity pricing. Have you checked the current
cost
of a gallon of milk vs. a couple of years ago?

This country has serious energy problems, but we're not electing
leadership
with the gumption to do anything real about solving them. Write your
congress people and *demand* an end to corn ethanol subsidies. They won't
do
anything unless we push them.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

Jay Honeck wrote:

Write your Congress Critters. The politicians are leading us down
this path for purely political purposes, and it's up to us to stop it.
--

They are not interested in logic... they are driven by polls and
elections. They will say and do whatever is expedient in order to
get the glowing admiration of the press and Hollyweird.

I recently watched a BBC documentary on U-Tube that stated that nearly word
for word and added that scientists requesting funding for nearly any type of
research had better link it to an environmental issue or it would surely be
denied. They also interviewed scientists who had been shunned from the
scientific community for asking even the most innocent or logical questions
if those questions shed any skepticism on the climate change theory. Of
course, this might lead to hundreds if not thousands of projects loosing
their funding.. so I guess if it's funded, it must be science? and of
course all science is good science? wait.. all funded science is good
science! or would the prefer "only funded science is good science"?
Jim

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote
I am sure that all of the above should be on the list of "usual
suspects" -- but -- you forgot the environmentalist crowd, who, for
years have sought ways to cripple our economy and way of life. The old
leftists, who lost their cause when communism went TU, found a ready
home in the environmental movement. Much of the "climate change"
"science" is hokum and poorly-devised models, resulting in
Garbage-garbage out.

Boy, nothing burns me up more than the press sticking a microphone in front
of an actor walking down the red carpet at a movie premier and asking them
"Who are you supporting in the presidential election?" as if the public is
supposed to blindly follow the politics of an actor just because they may be
a fan of their acting ability???!! WTF?!

Are these the future press room questions?: "I ask you Madam President,
since you received such glowing endorsements from the Hollyweird Elite, when
will you begin your scientologist approved, vegetarian and PETA endorsed eco
tour of Africa so you can illegally adopt a child of your own? Will this be
before your anorexia/alcohol/drug/racial hatred rehabilitation or after
you're released from house arrest from your DUI?"

Jim

"ktbr" wrote in message
...
Jay Honeck wrote:

Write your Congress Critters. The politicians are leading us down
this path for purely political purposes, and it's up to us to stop it.
--

They are not interested in logic... they are driven by polls and
elections. They will say and do whatever is expedient in order to
get the glowing admiration of the press and Hollyweird.

Jim could you share with us your take on farm subsidies encouraging
monoculturing and overproduction of corn for high fructose corn syrup
and soy for the protein equivalent?

Ethanol and hydrogen were long ago coopted from the left by big energy
and agribusiness, but there has been a fair amount of press recently
along the lines of "processed foods are the reason our kids are fat
and lazy," along with data on the increase in production of
high-fructose syrup to show a correlation.

Don

Jim Burns wrote:
Boy, nothing burns me up more than the press sticking a microphone in
front of an actor walking down the red carpet at a movie premier and
asking them "Who are you supporting in the presidential election?"
as if the public is supposed to blindly follow the politics of an
actor just because they may be a fan of their acting ability???!!
WTF?!

Are these the future press room questions?: "I ask you Madam
President, since you received such glowing endorsements from the
Hollyweird Elite, when will you begin your scientologist approved,
vegetarian and PETA endorsed eco tour of Africa so you can illegally
adopt a child of your own? Will this be before your
anorexia/alcohol/drug/racial hatred rehabilitation or after you're
released from house arrest from your DUI?"


ROFL.... BUT It isn't Hollywood's fault they are stupid and a lot of them
really think what they are saying is good for the planet/country/whatever.
Add they might actually think they know what they are talking about because
they surround themselves with people who tell them that everything they do
is perfect. Much like the Kings of yesteryear.

It isn't the media's fault because they are just reporting what the public
wants to hear and see. Remember, you live in a country where the two biggest
news stories over last year were "who was the father of a sometimes fat,
dead stripper's baby" and that some little slut that you wouldn't let your
son date spent a couple of weeks in jail.

I also hate to admit it but it isn't the fault of the politicians either.
Many are just like those in Hollywood in that they think their crap doesn't
stink because there are so many people around them telling them so. And all
of them have to get reelected so they fall under the same problem the media
has.

Only one group is to blame and that is us, the voters. Until at least 50% +
1 of us pull our collective heads out of our asses we are well and truly
screwed.