when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

So Stephen, what specifically would constitute another instruction that
permits entry, and don't try and tell me that it would have to include
"cleared to enter" because that would be incorrect phraseology with
respect to Class C airspace.


As I said in several previous messages in this thread, an instruction to
remain clear of Class C airspace issued to an aircraft that has established
two-way radio communications remains in effect until another instruction is
issued that permits that aircraft to enter Class C airspace. That assumes,
of course, that the pilot still wants Class C services and remains on the
frequency. Examples would be "proceed on course", "fly heading XXX, vector
for sequencing", "enter right base for runway XX", etc.

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
nk.net...

To enter class C airspace, the FARs say that you have to establish
two-way radio communication.


Yes, but the FARs also say that except in an emergency, no person may
operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air
traffic control is exercised. Class C airspace is an area in which air
traffic control is exercised, so a pilot that has established two-way radio
communications and been instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace must
remain outside until further advised.



The AIM provides a few examples which indicate that no
explicit clearance is required. I agree that ATC can establish
communication but instruct the pilot to remain clear. It is what
can happen next that we have been debating.

From the FARs, the AIM , and my experiences, the
acknowledgement of a particular plane by ATC establishes
two-way radio communication and is sufficient for the plane to
enter the class C - even after the issuance of a "remain clear."


The FARs and AIM indicate just the opposite, and you don't have any
experience to the contrary, you just misinterpreted the situation.



It does seem to be your opinion and it is far from a simple fact.


Actually, it is an indisputable fact. It can be no other way.



There is no language in the FARs or AIM that clearly supports either of
our opinions.


The FARs and AIM support what I've been saying and indicate that you're
wrong.



There is no text that says anything about what must happen after a
"remain clear" has been issued for class C.


What text says what must happen after any ATC instruction is issued?



There is no such thing as an instruction to permit entry into class C.


Why? Because all ATC instructions are listed in the AIM and there is no
such instruction mentioned?



The FARs say that two-way radio communication is sufficient. The AIM
says that two-way radio communication is sufficient. Where does it say
otherwise?


In FAR 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an
ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.


By the way, you're contradicting yourself. Earlier you wrote; "I agree that
ATC can establish communication but instruct the pilot to remain clear."
Now you're saying that ATC cannot instruct an aircraft that has established
radio communications to remain outside Class C airspace.



If the controller intended for the pilot to remain clear that he would
have simply ignored the pilot's radio calls or would have repeated
the "remain clear."


If the controller didn't intend for the pilot to remain clear he wouldn't
have told him "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Why
would the controller need to repeat that instruction?



For the scenario described by the original poster, the departure
controller instructed him to remain clear of the class C. Once in
the air, the radio exchange that occured established two-way
radio communication and was sufficient for him to enter the class C.


Wrong. Two-way radio communications were established just once, when the
aircraft was on the ground, at the same time the instruction to remain
outside Class C airspace was issued. Communications are not established
with every communications exchange, just the first one.



Or, that I'm right.


The AIM, FARs, FAA Order 7110.65, and simple logic indicate you're wrong.





I'll agree with that. I'm sure some day that a class C or D controller
will say something like "cleared to enter ..." but it is not necessary and
I
don't need to hear it whether or not I have been told to remain clear.


But once you've been told to remain outside Class C airspace you do have to
hear something that indicates you can enter.



There is no documentation to support your point of view either.


All pertinent documentation supports my position.



My position is consistent with the documentation that does exist.


Your position is contrary to all pertinent documentation, you simply do not
understand the documentation.



It is consistent with my experiences at class C and D airports.


Impossible, as you cannot experience that which does not occur.



It is not completely illogical.


Actually, it is. You're just not thinking logically.



I would suggest that having this ambiguity about a clearance to
enter the class C/D in the FARs in the first place is illogical.


What ambiguity?



You have explained it very simply and I do think that I understand
what you are saying. Let me summarize to be sure. You claim that
once a controller has issued a "remain clear" for a class C or D
airspace that an explicit "cleared into the class C or D airpspace" or
some instruction that requires entry is necessary before the pilot
should enter.


"Cleared" would be incorrect, but otherwise that's a reasonable facsimile.



I disagree with you.


Right. It's like I'm saying "two plus two equals four", and you're saying
"I disagree, in my experience two plus two equals five".



I am trying to map what you are saying to the
documentation and to my experiences. They don't seem to agree.


That's because you've misinterpreted the documents and drawn incorrect
conclusions from your experience.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

Ok Steven. New hypothetical.

Manly Piper 54321 calls approach from the ground desiring to
enter Class C airspace after takeoff. Ralph at approach says
"Piper 54321after takeoff remain clear of the class C" Ralph
then goes off shift.

Manly Piper takes off and begins to maneuver around the class
C. He calls approach, and George annswers "Piper 54321 say
direction of flight"

Is Manly Piper permitted to enter the class C?


No.



What bearing toes Ralphs instruction have?


It isn't Ralph's instruction personally, it's approach's instruction. It
remains in effect until an instruction is issued that permits entry to Class
C airspace.



What bearing does George's instruction have?


George didn't issue an instruction.



Does the Manly Piper need to know whether it's Ralph or George?


No.



Does George need to know that Ralph told the Manly Piper to
stay clear, or does George get to start with a clean slate and
make his own evaluation?


George need to know that Ralph told the Piper to stay clear, it would have
been part of the relief briefing.

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is.


Actually, the issue is cut and dried. From the direction this thread's
taken it's clear that some pilots have a poor understanding of regulations
and procedures with regard to Class C airspace.



Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?


Nothing in the original message indicates the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, and it wouldn't matter if
it had.

Howdy!

In article k.net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

To enter class C airspace, the FARs say that you have to establish
two-way radio communication.


Yes, but the FARs also say that except in an emergency, no person may
operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air
traffic control is exercised. Class C airspace is an area in which air
traffic control is exercised, so a pilot that has established two-way radio
communications and been instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace must
remain outside until further advised.

How do you infer that from the plain text of the FARs (especially considering
the guidance the AIM offers)?

FAR 91.130 - Operations in Class C airspace.

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class C
airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications
requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio
communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case
of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air
traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter
maintain those communications while within that airspace.

I also note that it never speaks of "clearance", but "ATC authorization".

Unless a two-way radio communication with the ATC facility includes an
explicit "remain clear", that communication authorizes entry into the
Class C airspace.

Do you have an authoritative statement that shows otherwise? Or are you
just waving your hands furiously?

[snip]

From the FARs, the AIM , and my experiences, the
acknowledgement of a particular plane by ATC establishes
two-way radio communication and is sufficient for the plane to
enter the class C - even after the issuance of a "remain clear."


The FARs and AIM indicate just the opposite, and you don't have any
experience to the contrary, you just misinterpreted the situation.

Pray tell which FARs you are reading that say what you seem to think
they say?

[snip]

There is no language in the FARs or AIM that clearly supports either of
our opinions.


The FARs and AIM support what I've been saying and indicate that you're
wrong.

The only thing the 91.130 is at all vague about (and it may well be
defined elsewhere -- I didn't look) is what consitutes "establishes
two-way radio communication".





There is no text that says anything about what must happen after a
"remain clear" has been issued for class C.


What text says what must happen after any ATC instruction is issued?



There is no such thing as an instruction to permit entry into class C.


Why? Because all ATC instructions are listed in the AIM and there is no
such instruction mentioned?

No. FARs 91.130 make no reference to a specific instruction (such as
a clearance). It merely requires the establishment of two-way radio
communication. See my excerpt above.



The FARs say that two-way radio communication is sufficient. The AIM
says that two-way radio communication is sufficient. Where does it say
otherwise?


In FAR 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an
ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.


By the way, you're contradicting yourself. Earlier you wrote; "I agree that
ATC can establish communication but instruct the pilot to remain clear."
Now you're saying that ATC cannot instruct an aircraft that has established
radio communications to remain outside Class C airspace.

No, he's not. If a communication includes "remain clear", then you don't
enter. If it doesn't include that magic phrase, you are permitted to enter
the airspace. Period. Stop. End of story.

[snip]

If the controller didn't intend for the pilot to remain clear he wouldn't
have told him "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". Why
would the controller need to repeat that instruction?

Because failure to repeat the instruction would create the condition
permitting entry into the airspace.

[snip remainder of "I know you are but what am I" mindless repetition of
unsupportable position by Steve]

yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Howdy!

In article .net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

In any case, it should be clear enough to you from the direction the
thread's taken that the issue isn't quite as clear, cut, and dried as you
think it is.


Actually, the issue is cut and dried. From the direction this thread's
taken it's clear that some pilots have a poor understanding of regulations
and procedures with regard to Class C airspace.

Take a good look in the mirror, Steve.



Perhaps you failed to notice that the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, while the airplane was
still on the ground?


Nothing in the original message indicates the original "remain clear"
instruction was given by a different controller, and it wouldn't matter if
it had.

You're absolutely right. The pilot in the original message had satisfied the
conditions required for entry into Class C airspace. No violation of ATC
instruction occurred.

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:vo8Yb.330189$xy6.1616439@attbi_s02...

You still haven't answered the question of *when* you claim the
remain-clear instruction expires (in the sense that it no longer need
be explicitly rescinded in order for subsequent two-way
communication to constitute permission to enter).


How could subsequent two-way communication constitute permission to enter?



Is it when the pilot changes his mind? When the
controller discards the strip? After ten minutes? At midnight,
when the next day starts? Or when?


What difference does it make? Once the pilot decides to forego Class C
services it's a moot point.



You acknowledge that the remain-clear doesn't carry forward
forever. But if there's no way to say when it stops, then (as
others have proposed) a plausible alternative interpretation is
that it stops immediately, in the sense that *any* subsequent
call-sign "handshake" with ATC establishes permission to enter
(unless the remain-clear is then repeated).


Doesn't the request for anything expire the instant that something is no
longer requested? In this case, from the pilot's viewpoint, it expired when
he decided to leave the frequency and go around the Class C airspace. From
the controller's viewpoint, it expired when the aircraft didn't respond to
subsequent calls and he observed the aircraft change to a 1200 code.

"gross_arrow" wrote in message
om...

how 'bout "resume own navigation"


That's used after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost
while the aircraft is being radar vectored. It wouldn't be appropriate in
this case as the aircraft was never vectored.

"Tom Fleischman" wrote in message
rthlink.net...

Sure that would work, along with something like, "N123AB, radar
contact, say destination and type aircraft", which was probably close
to what the original poster heard (my read of what he alluded to in his
original post).


"Resume own navigation" isn't appropriate in this case because the aircraft
was never vectored. The query "N123AB, radar contact, say destination and
type aircraft" accomplishes nothing by itself. Once the pilot answers the
controller might respond with "proceed on course", that would do it.

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
ink.net...

I happen to believe that the pilot was correct, did not need to ask for
permission and was free to enter the class C.


You've made it very clear that is what you believe, what you haven't
explained is why you believe it.



But, thanks to all this debate BS, I at least now know that it may
not be clear cut. The next time I talk to the controllers at my
home base, I'll ask them.


What makes you think they'd know anything about it?