when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

Howdy!

In article .net,
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

...such as "November 1234, radar contact..."


An instruction is an authoritative direction to be obeyed. What part of
"November 1234, radar contact..." do you consider to be an instruction?

My bad. Your postulate was invalid. "November 1234, radar contact."
is not an instruction. It does, however, "establish two-way radio
communication" which authorizes entry into Class C airspace.
Entry into Class C airspace does not require affirmative instructions,
unlike Class B airspace which requires an affirmative clearance.
If ATC wants you to remain clear, they have to keep saying so if they
are going to communicate using your tail number.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

"Michael Houghton" wrote in message
...

My bad. Your postulate was invalid. "November 1234, radar contact."
is not an instruction. It does, however, "establish two-way radio
communication" which authorizes entry into Class C airspace.


Negative. Communications are established only once per flight, that was
done with the first communications exchange.



Entry into Class C airspace does not require affirmative instructions,
unlike Class B airspace which requires an affirmative clearance.
If ATC wants you to remain clear, they have to keep saying so if they
are going to communicate using your tail number.


No. ATC only has to issue any given instruction once. It remains in effect
until overridden by another instruction or the original request is dropped.

Steven,

Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

I sort of thought that when the controller called me by tail number
and said radar contact (and didn't say remain clear), that would
constitute a communication that permits entry. But you wrote:

... entering without an explicit instruction that
permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would be
a violation ...

What determines which communications permit entry? Can you point me
to a reference in the FAR or AIM? Do say "proceed on course", but how
is that an explicit instruction to enter the class C airspace? I
would think "cleared to enter class C airspace" would be an explicit
instruction, but I certainly never hear that because I didn't think
that was necessary for class C, only class B. I don't understand why
you think "proceed on course" is an explicit instruction that permits
entry. (It certainly wouldn't be explicit if we were talking about
class B.) Again, a reference to something that would help be know
exactly which communications constituted explicit instruction to enter
vs. not would help me for the future.

John Gaquin wrote:

When you're talking about airspace entry, etc., pilot/controller interaction
is *never* "understood", or "presumed". Clear and direct statements are
used.
....
When you hear the phrase '....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared
into...', or some such.
I keep my airplane at a class C airport and don't think I ever hear
that type of language. When the controller calls my tail number and
doesn't tell me to remain clear then it means that I can enter.

John Harlow wrote:
Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound
like you could be a nuisance.
I think it might be standard practice for this AFB. I don't think the
airspace was busy. I guess they don't want people flying in until
they can see them on their screens. I hope I didn't sound like a
nuisance.

John Harlow wrote:
When you explicitly get permission to enter.
I though when they called my tail number and didn't tell me to remain
clear that was permission. Where is what I need to hear defined in
the FAR or AIM?

Maule Driver wrote:
Did the controller contact the pilot after departure before the pilot
called himself?
The controller called me (my speculation is that he called me upon
seeing me on his radar).

Nathan Young wrote:
Irrespective of regulations - it never hurts to ask the controller for
clarification.

I agree with you, but at the time it didn't occur to me that I needed
any clarification. I heard my tail number and did not hear another
remain clear and thought that meant I could enter. The ONLY reason
that I questioned this was that my pilot friend who was on board
questioned it first. And he said that he honestly didn't know, but
believed that I should have heard something else before entering.
Yes, I ask when I am confused about something ... but only if I
realize that I am confused. :-)
Anyway I prefer to get straightened out on these things on the ground
when possible so that I don't have to continually quiz the controllers
about things that I'm expected to know while in the air.

Steven P. McNicoll:
It ends upon receipt of ATC instructions that permit entry.

Which are defined where?

Thank-you!

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...

Steven,

Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

I sort of thought that when the controller called me by tail number
and said radar contact (and didn't say remain clear), that would
constitute a communication that permits entry.


It does, unless the controller instructs you to remain clear of the Class C
airspace, as was the case here.



But you wrote:

... entering without an explicit instruction that
permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would
be
a violation ...

What determines which communications permit entry? Can you point me
to a reference in the FAR or AIM? Do say "proceed on course", but
how is that an explicit instruction to enter the class C airspace? I
would think "cleared to enter class C airspace" would be an explicit
instruction, but I certainly never hear that because I didn't think
that was necessary for class C, only class B. I don't understand why
you think "proceed on course" is an explicit instruction that permits
entry. (It certainly wouldn't be explicit if we were talking about
class B.) Again, a reference to something that would help be know
exactly which communications constituted explicit instruction to enter
vs. not would help me for the future.


The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the
Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden by
another instruction. How can it be any other way? If you were IFR and
assigned eight thousand, at what point can you descend to six thousand?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the
Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden by
another instruction. How can it be any other way?

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
"Steven P. McNicoll"
The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the
Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden
by
another instruction. How can it be any other way?

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?

I think you are getting to the heart of the matter. The key is that the
"remain clear' was issued before departure. It is a meaningless
admonishment by ATC. They can't clear you to enter before departure anymore
than they need to tell you to remain clear. What it is really meant to
convey is that "just because you are about ready to depart and we've made
radio contact with N-numbers, don't think it means that radio contact has
been established for the purpose of entering my Class C - let's talk after
you depart"

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...

I think you are getting to the heart of the matter. The key is that the
"remain clear' was issued before departure. It is a meaningless
admonishment by ATC. They can't clear you to enter before departure
anymore than they need to tell you to remain clear.


Meaningless before departure, meaningful after departure.



What it is really meant to convey is that "just because you are about
ready to depart and we've made radio contact with N-numbers, don't
think it means that radio contact has been established for the purpose
of entering my Class C - let's talk after you depart"


What it really means is "remain outside Class C airspace until I say
something that permits entry."

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the controller's
calls?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
news:6idXb.310621$na.463020@attbi_s04...

Well, suppose the pilot returns tomorrow and establishes two-way
communication with the Class C controller. Yesterday's remain-clear
instruction still has not been explicitly rescinded. So is it still in
effect, or can the pilot now enter the Class C?


What happened yesterday? Why didn't the pilot respond to the controller's
calls?

Who said the pilot didn't respond? ATC: "Cessna 12345, remain clear of
Class C". N12345: "Roger". N12345 flies around the Class C to some
destination, then returns the following day and establishes the requisite
two-way communication before entering Class C. Is yesterday's "remain
clear" instruction still in effect? If not, when did it expire?

--Gary

You do not need a "Clearance" to enter Class C, however you do need two way
communications and be recognized as stated below in the Airmen Information
Manual.



Richard



3. Arrival or Through Flight Entry Requirements. Two-way radio communication
must be established with the ATC facility providing ATC services prior to
entry and thereafter maintain those communications while in Class C
airspace. Pilots of arriving aircraft should contact the Class C airspace
ATC facility on the publicized frequency and give their position, altitude,
radar beacon code, destination, and request Class C service. Radio contact
should be initiated far enough from the Class C airspace boundary to
preclude entering Class C airspace before two-way radio communications are
established.

NOTE-
1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft callsign)
standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter
the Class C airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of
Class C services, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the
Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the
initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio
communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the
Class C airspace.

EXAMPLE-
1. [Aircraft callsign] "remain outside the Class Charlie airspace and
standby."

2. "Aircraft calling Dulles approach control, standby."

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.