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Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 14th 10, 01:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

Kurt Ullman writes:

So, if they care, they would find out who is running the flight and
stay away.


If they knew that there are substantial safety differences--but they don't.

Most of the websites I have looked around on tell you at
least the aircraft and mostly the carrier if it is other than the
airline itself. If anyone is interested all they really have to do is
stay on equipment from Boeing or Airbus and they should be with the
"real" airlines.


They don't try to look it up because they don't realize that there's a
difference worth checking into.

I agree that staying with Boeing or Airbus aircraft is usually pretty safe.

And yes, I have canceled flights myself after discovering that they would be
flown on regional turboprops, although it wasn't just or primarily because of
doubts about pilot competence.

That Dateline, USA Today, the NYT, the AP and a multitude of other
sources point out from time to time.


They talk about accidents, but not safety.

An accident is the result of an accumulation of many individual errors. Often
these errors were made for a very long time individually until they finally
combined in an unhappy way. The documentary even points this out.

Because of this, you can have two carriers that are vastly different in their
safety levels without any difference in accidents (until the above happens).
One might have very generous safety margins (and will thus avoid accidents),
while the other might have very thin margins (and will thus have an accident
sooner or later). You don't really know until the accidents occur; the best
you can do is infer from what you do know. Deep discounts on tickets are one
sign that there may be shortcuts taken on safety.
  #12  
Old February 14th 10, 01:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

FlyCherokee writes:

The accident itself is still a mystery to me. I only saw the first
half of the show, but that part made it look like the crew made some
very fundamental errors; not maintaining airspeed, and a very strange
response to the stall. Has there been any other analysis (made
public) that explains the captain pulling back on the stick during the
stall?


During the last hearing held by the NTSB, that agency made it clear that pilot
incompetence and lack of experience were the probable causes of the accident.
The pilots made multiple serious mistakes that accumulated until a crash
occurred. They failed to maintain a sterile cockpit, they reacted improperly
to the problems they experienced again and again, etc. A competent flight deck
crew would have easily avoided the crash, and could have dealt with the
problems successfully even if they were somehow allowed to occur.

Overall the NTSB was very hard on the pilots. The aircraft was fine, and
weather does not appear to have been a factor.

If you watch the NTSB animation you can see many mistakes being made, even if
you're not familiar with the specific aircraft in question.
  #13  
Old February 14th 10, 03:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Kurt Ullman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Kurt Ullman writes:

So, if they care, they would find out who is running the flight and
stay away.


If they knew that there are substantial safety differences--but they don't.


If they cared they would know and find out.

They don't try to look it up because they don't realize that there's a
difference worth checking into.

Then they aren't really interested and certainly not paying
attention.

That Dateline, USA Today, the NYT, the AP and a multitude of other
sources point out from time to time.


They talk about accidents, but not safety.


The last Dateline (or maybe the one on CBS, I get them confused)
talked about lousy safety records, poor pilot training and requirements,
long commutes, etc. Same with the last CNN chat about regional airlines
and the last AP article I saw. Much umbrage and angst from the Fourth
Estate recently.

--
I get off on '57 Chevys
I get off on screamin' guitars
--Eric Clapton
  #14  
Old February 14th 10, 05:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Robert Cohen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

On Feb 13, 9:33*pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

*Mxsmanic wrote:
Kurt Ullman writes:


So, if they care, they would find out who is running the flight and
stay away.


If they knew that there are substantial safety differences--but they don't.


* If they cared they would know and find out.

They don't try to look it up because they don't realize that there's a
difference worth checking into.


* * Then they aren't really interested and certainly not paying
attention.

That Dateline, USA Today, the NYT, the AP and a multitude of other
sources point out from time to time.


They talk about accidents, but not safety.


* *The last Dateline (or maybe the one on CBS, I get them confused)
talked about lousy safety records, poor pilot training and requirements,
long commutes, etc. Same with the last CNN chat about regional airlines
and the last AP article I saw. Much umbrage and angst from the Fourth
Estate recently.

--
I get off on '57 Chevys
I get off on screamin' guitars
* * * --Eric Clapton


Recently (1-- 3 years ago) a passenger airliner crashed allegedly from
later determined PILOTS ERRORS near Buffalo:

The pilot's file shows he was apparently unqualified if not
inexperienced

The co-pilot's file apparently ditto

Plus they both were reportedly fatigued

The co-pilot pay for the commuter gigs is something like $26 thousand
a year

I do not fly unless my dear wife pushes, and the above is certainly
plenty of reasons enough

A few months ago we flew in a small passenger commuter plane RT
Atlanta-Gulfport Miss
and do acknowledge the trips went smoothly, except those
Jackson-Hartsfield end of concourse concrete steps, no other
complaint

I am slightly surprised the Buffalo commuter airline has an insurance
underwriter, because I would
expect them to rationally beg off of doing business with such an
alleged certified airline

  #15  
Old February 17th 10, 11:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,767
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

On Feb 13, 8:23*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
tim.... writes:
Why should this require them to reduce ticket prices?


Because passengers pay in part for safety, and safety is greatly reduced when
a regional airline operates the flight. *Passengers pay for their tickets in
the expectation that they will enjoy the superlative safety record of a major
airline, when in fact they will be subjected to an order of magnitude greater
risk with a regional.


I think this has been proven false over and over. Even the most
"dangerous" airlines in the US are enormously safe. There is nothing
to suggest that travelers pay any extra for the airlines with a better
record. Top priorities for travelers are...
1) Price
2) Price
3) Price
4) On time
5) Personal experience (have they ****ed me off in the past)?
6) Goodies (frequent flyer miles, etc)
7) Connections

These priorities have been proven over and over.

-Robert
  #16  
Old February 17th 10, 11:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,767
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

On Feb 13, 3:43*pm, FlyCherokee wrote:
On Feb 13, 8:19*am, Mxsmanic wrote:


The accident itself is still a mystery to me. I only saw the first
half of the show, but that part made it look like the crew made some
very fundamental errors; not maintaining airspeed, and a very strange
response to the stall. *Has there been any other analysis (made
public) that explains the captain pulling back on the stick during the
stall?


As I was watching the special and they described how the captain
reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the
same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct
for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push
forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical
stall scenario.

-Robert
  #17  
Old February 17th 10, 11:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
James Robinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 180
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

FlyCherokee wrote:

The accident itself is still a mystery to me. I only saw the first
half of the show, but that part made it look like the crew made some
very fundamental errors; not maintaining airspeed, and a very strange
response to the stall. *Has there been any other analysis (made
public) that explains the captain pulling back on the stick during the
stall?


As I was watching the special and they described how the captain
reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the
same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct
for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push
forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical
stall scenario.


In the NTSB presentations at the public hearing, they noted that Colgan
Air presented a video on tailplane icing in their training courses. The
NTSB went on to note that the Dash 8 is not susceptible to tailplane
stalls in icing, nor are any other current Part 121 aircraft.

The thirteenth conclusion in their summary was:

13 - It is unlikely that the captain was deliberately attempting to
perform a tailplane stall recovery.

So for whatever reason, they don't share your view on the subject.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2010/AAR1001.htm
  #18  
Old February 17th 10, 11:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
FlyCherokee
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

On Feb 17, 5:02*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
As I was watching the special and they described how the captain
reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the
same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct
for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push
forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical
stall scenario.

-Robert


Now that's very interesting, I hadn't heard that before. If your
suspicion is true, it would be a much more reasonable explanation for
his behavior than gross incompetence.

John

  #19  
Old February 17th 10, 11:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
James Robinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 180
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

FlyCherokee wrote:

On Feb 17, 5:02*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:

As I was watching the special and they described how the captain
reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the
same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct
for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push
forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical
stall scenario.

-Robert


Now that's very interesting, I hadn't heard that before. If your
suspicion is true, it would be a much more reasonable explanation for
his behavior than gross incompetence.


The NTSB had a long enough list of things that were done wrong to seriously
question both pilots' competence. Just read the presentations on crew
response and pilot professionalism on the following NTSB web page:

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2010/Clar...sentations.htm

They are short slide presentations, but are full of things that simply
weren't done properly.
  #20  
Old February 18th 10, 05:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.travel.air
Mxsmanic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,169
Default Frontline documentary on the problems with regionals

Robert M. Gary writes:

As I was watching the special and they described how the captain
reacted to the stall warning I couldn't help wonder if he attended the
same tailplane icing course I did. His reaction was text book correct
for a tailplane stall in icing conditions (pull back, not push
forward). He may have believed his problem was ice, not an typical
stall scenario.


The evidence for his overall incompetence was strong enough that it is
unlikely he'd have specific competence in dealing with tailplane icing. It's
more likely that he was responding instinctively--and incorrectly--to the
circumstances.

Tailplane icing was indeed considered as a possibility initially, before the
long list of errors made by the pilots became fully apparent.
 




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